Question about Jukai and lay people

[Hokuu]

Hi everybody,
I'm not doing Jukai this year but I have a question that somebody might help me with.

A part of Jukai is sewing and receiving a Rakusu (at least in this sangha). In my understanding receiving a Rakusu is equivalent to receiving a monastic robe. Doesn't receiving a monastic robe imply one is a monk afterwards?
I know in Theravada tradition, they have something like receiving/giving precepts for lay people who don't want or can't be bound my monastic rules. Does Japanese Soto tradition has anything similar or everybody just becomes a "lay monk" (quotes not to disrespect but to highlight the paradox of the statement)?

Maybe I'm just mixing traditions and that's the source of misunderstanding

Sorry for running long.

Paul

Sat today

[Kotei]

Hi Paul,

I am thinking of Jukai as a lay ordination, the formal commitment to a Sangha and teacher and to the buddhist path, there are some views of what Jukai might mean listed here: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...l=1#post327996

I don't see the rakusu or the okesa necessarily as a "monastic" robe, but the robe of the Buddha.
In our tradition, even that 7panel okesa, we sew and receive with ordaining as an unsui can be sewn by lay folks after having received Jukai.
The precepts, we receive with Jukai and accept as a guidance for our life are not different from those we receive with ordaining as a unsui.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Guest]

Just to piggy back on the topic, because it interests me since part of me has always wanted to be the sort of person who should be a monk.

If (if I understand rightly) an unsui and lay preceptee receive the same precepts and both wear the rakusu or okesa, as aide from the fact that unsui are training to be priests, what is the key difference?

Sattday

[Jundo]

If (if I understand rightly) an unsui and lay preceptee receive the same precepts and both wear the rakusu or okesa, as aide from the fact that unsui are training to be priests, what is the key difference?

I would say it is the attitude of service, and vow to dedicate onself to our Traditions and keep them alive into future generations.

I like to say that becoming Ordained is the difference between being the "crew" on the raft crossing to the other shore, and the passengers on the raft whom the crew is to serve.

An Ordained person has an extra commitment to serve and assist other sentient beings, to learn our history, traditions and the ways of Shikantaza and Soto Zen, and to guide and help Zen Practitioners on their way. Some of the Unsui (literally "clouds and water," but meaning novice Zen priests-in-training) will so embody these traditions, and so demonstrate right understanding, wisdom and compassion and ethics, that they will become fully Ordained priests and teachers themselves, equipped perhaps to pass that history and our traditions on to further generations of novices.

So, the Vows, Precepts and Kesa are the same, but the attitude with which each is undertaken and worn is sometimes called the difference of "host" and "guest."

Nishijima Roshi recognized that the hard borders between "ordained" life and worldly life are softening, for we do not live in monasteries, are often married with family, even though Ordained. In that way, perhaps modern Zen clergy are somewhat more like Protestant ministers than celibate priests these days. Still, the duty is to support the Sangha, to embody and spread the Dharma, to keep the lineage of Buddha alive, helping the sentient beings.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Guest]

I would say it is the attitude of service, and vow to dedicate onself to our Traditions and keep them alive into future generations.

I like to say that becoming Ordained is the difference between being the "crew" on the raft crossing to the other shore, and the passengers on the raft whom the crew is to serve.

An Ordained person has an extra commitment to serve and assist other sentient beings, to learn our history, traditions and the ways of Shikantaza and Soto Zen, and to guide and help Zen Practitioners on their way. Some of the Unsui (literally "clouds and water," but meaning novice Zen priests-in-training) will so embody these traditions, and so demonstrate right understanding, wisdom and compassion and ethics, that they will become fully Ordained priests and teachers themselves, equipped perhaps to pass that history and our traditions on to further generations of novices.

So, the Vows, Precepts and Kesa are the same, but the attitude with which each is undertaken and worn is sometimes called the difference of "host" and "guest."

Nishijima Roshi recognized that the hard borders between "ordained" life and worldly life are softening, for we do not live in monasteries, are often married with family, even though Ordained. In that way, perhaps modern Zen clergy are somewhat more like Protestant ministers than celibate priests these days. Still, the duty is to support the Sangha, to embody and spread the Dharma, to keep the lineage of Buddha alive, helping the sentient beings.

Gassho, J

stlah

Jundo,

I am saving that quote! Puts it all in clear perspective without question.

Gassho,
Daiman
St/LAH

[Seiko]

Hi Kotei,

I am thinking of Jukai as a lay ordination

I am sorry to disagree a little. With respect, I know this term "lay ordination" is widely used but could this be creating some confusion rather than making things clearer? As "ordination" is known to Christians as becoming a priest - and Christianity is the most well known religion in the West, we have tended to borrow some of their words. Isn't Jukai nearer to "confirmation" than "ordination"?

Hi Paul and Dan,

Maybe I'm just mixing traditions and that's the source of misunderstanding

what is the key difference?

Please remember I am just a beginner here, so if I get anything wrong I am always open to correction by Jundo or any monks here who know better than I.

Let me compare with Christianity.

Jukai feels similar to confirmation - a lay person commits to do their best to keep a set of precepts/promises. They are part of a community of people who have a faith in Buddhism. Not everyone can or should be a monk/priest - we all have our individual paths in life.

Ordination in Christianity feels similar to ordination in Sōtō Zen. The priest/monk is completely not (and never) a step up from a lay person. The priest or monk (we use both terms) lives a life of service, becoming a "helper" in this life, is their prime purpose.

Whilst a priest may not know everything, even one as new and lacking in knowledge as me, feels that they (I) am a custodian of our Tradition - our Lineage.

In terms of garments, I think of our Nyohō-e kesa as the Buddha's Robe, the Robe of Meditation, not so much the uniform of a monk.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Jundo]

Hi Paul, Hi Dan,

Please remember I am just a beginner here, so if I get anything wrong I am always open to correction by Jundo or any monks here who know better than I.

Let me compare with Christianity.

Jukai feels similar to confirmation - a lay person commits to do their best to keep a set of precepts/promises. They are part of a community of people who have a faith in Buddhism. Not everyone can or should be a monk/priest we all have our individual paths in life.

Ordination in Christianity feels similar to ordination in Sōtō Zen. The priest/monk is completely not and never a step up from a lay person. The priest or monk (we use both terms) lives a life of service, becoming a "helper" in this life is their prime purpose.

Whilst a priest may not know everything, even one as new and lacking in knowledge as me, feels that they (I) am a custodian of our Tradition - our Lineage.

In terms of garments, I think of our Nyohō-e kesa as the Buddha's Robe, the Robe of Meditation, not so much the uniform of a monk.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Bion]

Hi everybody,
I'm not doing Jukai this year but I have a question that somebody might help me with.

A part of Jukai is sewing and receiving a Rakusu (at least in this sangha). In my understanding receiving a Rakusu is equivalent to receiving a monastic robe. Doesn't receiving a monastic robe imply one is a monk afterwards?
I know in Theravada tradition, they have something like receiving/giving precepts for lay people who don't want or can't be bound my monastic rules. Does Japanese Soto tradition has anything similar or everybody just becomes a "lay monk" (quotes not to disrespect but to highlight the paradox of the statement)?

Maybe I'm just mixing traditions and that's the source of misunderstanding

Sorry for running long.

Paul

Sat today

I sat with this question for quite some time early on when the thought of ordination came to my mind and discussed it with other friends here.
I won’t address what has already been mentioned, but I wanted to tell you that for me, it all boiled down to the added obligations, responsibilities and commitments that come with shaving the head and putting on the robes, as I realized it was not about privileges or status or being more or being better. At the end of the day everyone does something else with their ordination vows.

Gassho Sat

[Hokuu]

Hi Seiko,

Isn't Jukai nearer to "confirmation" than "ordination"?

Yes, thanks, I think it's a pretty good analogy .

In terms of garments, I think of our Nyohō-e kesa as the Buddha's Robe, the Robe of Meditation, not so much the uniform of a monk.

I see the point but I still think that kesa has some historical relation to the monastic robe. Probably at some point in the past, lay people started wearing it out of respect or sign of commitment? In this sense it reminds me of habits (or their symbolic representation) of say lay Franciscans and now it starts to make more sense to me


Paul
Sat today

[Kotei]

Hi Kotei,

I am sorry to disagree a little. With respect, I know this term "lay ordination" is widely used but could this be creating some confusion rather than making things clearer? As "ordination" is known to Christians as becoming a priest - and Christianity is the most well known religion in the West, we have tended to borrow some of their words. Isn't Jukai nearer to "confirmation" than "ordination"?

Please don't be sorry and please wholeheartedly disagree
Imho it is important for everyone to arrive at a personal view what Jukai or Shukke Tokudo means to them in their life, hence I linked to the different views about Jukai.

What I uttered is just my personal view. I am by no means authoritative or in possession of any knowledge or wisdom, just a bunch of subjective views.
In this case, which I understood as a question about lay and priest, householder and monastic boundaries, I wanted to accent the view that the border between lay folks and priests is blurry and softened in our lineage.

When I am looking at modern western (Soto) Zen practice and compare it to the few I know about Soto lay practice in Japan,
I think we already did quite a big step towards monastic practice over here.
Lay folks over here sit daily Zazen, study buddhist scriptures and discuss, engage with their teacher and join Sesshin.
To me it seems in parts closer to the practice in training monasteries, than that of the normal temples or most lay folks in Japan (not the physical or figurative home leaving part).

I feel both as a kind or ordination, Jukai (lay ordination) and Shukke Tokudo (home leaving ordination).
Both a commitment to entering the way, accepting the precepts as a guidance of life, learn and study, commit to a teacher and sangha and daily practice.
I believe there are still differences, I see Shukke Tokudo as putting more weight on servicing the community, keeping the way alive for future generations and leaning more towards understanding life and practice as one and arranging life around practice and not practice around life.

Of course this is just my personal view, nobody needs to consider or even agree on.
Sorry for running long.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Bion]

Hi Kotei,


Isn't Jukai nearer to "confirmation" than "ordination"?

Well, I think confirmation is a foreign term for anyone that is not familiar with catholicism . I grew up orthodox and then was a Jehovah’s Witness. The term confirmation is totally foreign to me as a former christian. I’d rather associate jukai with protestant baptism.. BUT, in my humble opinion, it’s better to stay away from comparisons to other religions. Jukai is the receiving of Buddhist Precepts and our commitment to upholding them above all else. It’s one’s ordination as a boddhisatva.
Just my two cents, to be taken with loads of salt


Gassho sat

[Risho]

Well, I think confirmation is a foreign term for anyone that is not familiar with catholicism . I grew up orthodox and then was a Jehovah’s Witness. The term confirmation is totally foreign to me as a former christian. I’d rather associate jukai with protestant baptism.. BUT, in my humble opinion, it’s better to stay away from comparisons to other religions. Jukai is the receiving of Buddhist Precepts and our commitment to upholding them above all else. It’s one’s ordination as a boddhisatva.
Just my two cents, to be taken with loads of salt


Gassho sat

Bion you are an interesting cat

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[Bion]

Bion you are an interesting cat

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

Is that “good interesting” or “bad interesting” ?

Gassho sat

[Risho]

good interesting! hahahah

[Nengei]

\ in my humble opinion, it’s better to stay away from comparisons to other religions. Jukai is the receiving of Buddhist Precepts and our commitment to upholding them above all else. It’s one’s ordination as a boddhisatva.

Beautifully put.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.