Sitting on a chair

[BrianP]

Re: Sitting on a chair

Tilting the chair or stool like that is a good idea. When I get people in prison with bad backs that make it easier for them to use a chair, I get them to put their shoes under the back legs with the legs in the shoe at the heel.

All gets s bit over complicated at times doesn`t it! :roll:

[Jinho]

Re: Sitting on a chair

I firmly support people sitting in a way that is not painful. I think it would be a pretty piss poor Enlightenment that depends on one's body position (and I think far higher of zen and buddhism in general to believe this). People only sit in the pretzel position (well that IS what it most resembles), because Gautama happened to study yoga for seven years before he sat under that tree for 6 years. If Gautama had been a monk in Europe, we would all be kneeling at prie-dieu's. And I just think there is enough pain in the world without going out of our way to make more. Personally I feel rock-solid when sitting with my back straight and my feel firmly on the floor (forming a solid tripod between butt and feet).

The important thing is to be alert in one's mind and still in one's body. A stable position, that is, one in which your body feels stable, usually promotes this best. Having one's back be upright over one's hips usually does this. Since your feet are not flat on the floor, perhaps additional stability could be achieved by having your arms supported by your desk? But as long as you are alert in mind, that is what matters. The upright (90 degree) position usually also keeps one from having back pain for most people. To avoid sinking in to my lower back (this sinking can cause pain) I lift my ribcage VERY SLIGHTLY. There are all sorts of guidelines about where to have your nose in relation to your neck, etc. but being stiff is the thing to avoid. Also, squeezing one's shoulders up to one's ears and then relaxing and letting the shoulders drop is a good way to feel what is probably a good placement for the shoulders.

Buddhism talks about ending pain and yet many zen people insist that the only way to enlightenment is to deliberately put yourself in pain. To the outside world, this looks ridiculous. And any Roshi whose understanding depends on pain seriously needs to find the rest of the understanding that doesn't.

As for Floor sitting being traditional to japanese people, that may be true, but net for hours at a time in complete stillness.


thank you for your time,
gassho,
rowan
who happily sits on a short (because she is short) 3-leg stool

[will]

Re: Sitting on a chair

If your really stuck on sitting in a chair, just put zafu on it, and sit on the edge with leg at ninety degree angle. However, don't visit Jundo because he'll take you some mountain and make you sit on a big rock.

Gassho

[Dosho]

Re: Sitting on a chair

If your really stuck on sitting in a chair, just put zafu on it, and sit on the edge with leg at ninety degree angle. However, don't visit Jundo because he'll take you some mountain and make you sit on a big rock.

Gassho

LOL!

[Jundo]

Re: Sitting on a chair

If your really stuck on sitting in a chair, just put zafu on it, and sit on the edge with leg at ninety degree angle. However, don't visit Jundo because he'll take you some mountain and make you sit on a big rock.

Gassho

Yes, Will is referring to the fact that anyone who visits Treeleaf in Tsukuba gets dragged by me for hiking on our nearby Mt. Tsukuba, including Zazen on a big rock. Here's Will ...

http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... ll-on.html

And speaking of rocks, I pretty much completely agree with everything Jinho wrote above. I really am caught between the rock of tradition and the hard place of people just sitting any way they wish that they THINK is comfortable and balanced. I do think that the Lotus Position is often fetishized in Japan particularly (see my old comment below, the Chinese are generally not so worshiping of the position itself.). But it is a heavy burden to toss out several thousand years of tradition!

I mean, there are a few statues of a Buddha sitting in a chair, but not too many ... and this guy certainly can use some work on both posture and shedding a few pounds (though I do look a bit like that with my robes off).



Bottom line for me: If any posture can be sat so that the body is forgotten, and one can have a general feeling of being balanced in body-mind, for long sittings ... it is probably a good posture. However, everyone should try the traditional way, and not give up too soon.

Gassho, J

Sorry that this comment is a bit long, but worth going into in detail I think ...

Posture is vital. But I think we have to keep a couple of things in mind about the history of the Lotus Position itself, its real benefits and purposes, monastery life, the Japanese tendency to fetishize the "correct" way (yarikata) to do things, and the Buddha's and Dogen's central philosophical perspectives on Practice.

Yes, the Lotus Position has been the traditional yogic position for meditation for thousands of years, even before the time of the Buddha. And certainly the Buddha sat that way (as every statue of a sitting Buddha demonstrates). And certainly there are tremendous benefits to the posture in providing balance and stability conducive to 'dropping body and mind' and engaging in balanced, stable Zazen. In that posture, we literally can give no thought to the body. The comfort and balance of the body is directly connected, and conducive to, comfort and balance of mind.

But I would hesitate to go much further in attributing any special power or physical effect to the position itself.

First off, I believe the Buddha himself sat that way because, well, he needed to sit some way for hours on end -- and the "lotus position" was then the custom in India for how people sat on the ground and very good for marathon sitting. It is a good way to sit on a rock or under a tree, which is what folks did back then (in fact, he may have sat with his posterior flat on the ground, by the way, without a cushion or 'Zafu' ... which is very different from how we sit). As I said, it is very balanced and stable. But there is no evidence in the early Sutras and Shastras that he himself ever focused on the position itself as having some special power, always emphasizing the philosophical and psychological aspects of Buddhist philosophy far over the purely physical. Certainly, he did not encourage engaging in any other yoga positions as were common in India at the time (e.g., we do not stand on our heads as a normal part of practice), so I do not think he was a great proponent of the positional type of yoga itself.

When Buddhism spread to China, Japan and other countries, I believe that people continued to follow the custom. However, even then there has been a tremendous degree of small variations in the details of the Lotus Posture, e.g., hand position, back angle and such.

Now, when Zazen came to Dogen, well, it came to a fellow who also left us with detailed instructions about how to carry our towels in the washroom, clean our nose, bow, place incense, use a pillow while sleeping and wipe ourselves in the toilet. Dogen, like many Japanese of ancient and modern times, was something of a control freak who emphasized that there is "one right way" to do things (the aforementioned (yarikata). I have seen Japanese get the same way about the proper way to wear socks and enter an elevator. Here is that wonderful short film that makes fun of it (I know that you have seen it 100 times):

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0b75cl4-qRE[/video]]

and here is another

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k3vBqX1NTBc[/video]]

Now, that is not a bad thing, mind you, for Zen Practice. Don't get me wrong. It is the same mentality exactly as in "Oryoki" meal taking in a Zen monastery by which the simple act of eating requires dozens and dozens of set gestures that must be mastered in the body memory. It is conducive to many aspects of Practice, including focused mindfulness. Sitting in a set way such as the Lotus Posture has the same benefits of allowing the action itself to be forgotten as it is mastered by the body memory.

Also, of course, in a monastery ... like in army boot camp ... you don't want folks just running around and flopping down any which way they feel, eating and sleeping whenever they wish. Quite the contrary. Discipline is required, so naturally, is the demand that everyone march around the monastery and sit in exactly the same way.

If you look at Shobogenzo and other writings by Dogen, he actually spends very little time explaining the details of how to sit. In Fukanzazengi, for example, he explains the barebones act of sitting on a pillow, crossing the legs and such ... but for sentence after sentence after sentence he is focused on the "cosmic significance" of Zazen and the mental game. It is much the same when he describes how to carry a towel in the bath, wear our robes, bow or go to the toilet. He describes the procedure, but then is much more focused on the philosophical view of the act.

Bouncing a ball or changing a tire --is-- Zazen itself. Dogen was clear on that. Of course, you do not have monks changing tires or bouncing balls too much in daily monastery life, so Dogen did not talk about those. But he did talk about the equivalent for monastery life, namely, cooking food as the Tenzo, washing the floors, etc. Dogen was crystal clear that the Lotus Position is the whole universe, the whole universe and all the Buddhas and Ancestors are sitting in the Lotus Position when you and I so sit ... but he was also clear that EVERYTHING is the Lotus Position. It is clear that Dogen, too, loved the perfection of the Lotus Posture ... but there is very little talk, if any, in his writing about the power of the position itself (do not confuse statements about the philosophical power of the position with his asserting that some energy or effect arises from the position itself ... you will not find much of that).

In my view, Dogen's real message ... and the real message of Zen practice ... is not that there is only "one way" to do something in this vast universe. It is that "one thing" should be done with our whole heart-mind as the "one and only act in that one moment" in this vast universe. That is what Dogen was saying.

My teacher, Nishijima, considers the Lotus Position a pure action, one pure thing. He recommends everyone to sit in the Lotus Position if at all possible. I do too (too many westerners get lazy or scared and don't really try, or give it sufficient time). But these days, in Zazen, Westerners have begun sitting other ways such as in seiza or on chairs (I only recommend this if there is a physical limitation whereby one cannot sit in the Lotus Posture). I believe that body-mind can be dropped away in those positions too if done with balance and stability.

An overly fetishized focus on the miracles of the Lotus Position itself is misplaced and misunderstands Dogen's intent.

Anyway, that is my position (pun intended). I won't budge.

Gassho, Jundo

[JamesVB]

Re: Sitting on a chair

You can sit here
you can sit there
you can sit with a bird
you can sit with the flock
Jundo will make you hike
to sit on a rock
you can sit near
you can sit far
it really doesn't matter
if you sit in a chair
just sit were you are
and stare

I miss Dr. Suess [sp?]

[Jinho]

Re: Sitting on a chair

You can sit here
you can sit there
you can sit with a bird
you can sit with the flock
Jundo will make you hike
to sit on a rock
you can sit near
you can sit far
it really doesn't matter
if you sit in a chair
just sit were you are
and stare

I miss Dr. Suess [sp?]

So Fabulous!!!!!!1

[murasaki]

Re: Sitting on a chair

Would you zazen in a box?
Would you zazen with a fox?
In a car, in a tree?
Try it, try it, you will see!

Yes, I would zazen in a box,
Yes, I would zazen with a fox,
and in a car,
and in a tree,
so Sam-I-Am,
just let me be!
:mrgreen:

[disastermouse]

Re: Sitting on a chair

I sat half-lotus for the first four years.

I only ever sat 20 minutes, because by 25, I was in agony. However, I also noticed that it took about 10-15 minutes for my mind to settle down...sometimes about 18 minutes..and then 2 minutes later, TIME TO GET UP (or feel unnecessary agony).

Sitting on the bench, it takes about 40 minutes for my neck/jaw to start to hurt. So, theoretically, I can sit longer on the bench.

Chet

[Longdog]

Re: Sitting on a chair

Hi Kirk

Just been reading a recommended book on Alexander Technique: 'Body, Breath and Being' by Carolyn Nicholls. Got a copy off amazon for around £6.

You might find it useful as it deals with both sitting in a chair and cross legged apart from lots of other useful AT stuff.

Also, I find I have to sit in a chair at the Abbey I attend because I can't manage double sittings etc of the required length on my seiza bench. If you push a small cushion right down the back off the chair to your sacrum area it should help tilt it forwards and give it some support in that position to allow a proper supportive back position. Also one higher up can give a little more support if necessary but the one at the base of the spine I find most helpful.

I go for a week long Jukai retreat there a week on friday so I've been working with a Monk on the best way I can manage what I've been told is just a bit short of a seshin in intensity. Thankfully same very kind Monk has offered to 'mentor' me in case of any health issues in the 7/8 days I'm there.

In gasso, Kevin (briefly out of lurker mode )

[Ryumon]

Re: Sitting on a chair

I have studied the Alexander Technique in the past. While I don't think to apply it, I do know about sitting, as that's one of the most basic elements of the technique. In fact, it may be that awareness - and having experienced balanced sitting during Alexander Technique lessons - that makes me so aware that my sitting on a cushion is uncomfortable.

Thanks for mentioning it, though; I'll have to pull out my books on the AT and reread what they say about sitting.

Kirk

[BrianP]

Re: Sitting on a chair

I`ll have to get used to a chair for the next three years - I`ve just been endorsed as Chairperson of Cyngor Bwddaidd Cymru - Buddhist Council of Wales.

Fame at last :!:

[will]

Re: Sitting on a chair

Would you zazen in a box?

I would sit Zazen in a house.
Or perhaps, with a mouse.

W

[Shugen]

Re: Sitting on a chair

Brian,

Congratulations!!

Ron

[Bansho]

Re: Sitting on a chair

Hi Brian,

I`ll have to get used to a chair for the next three years - I`ve just been endorsed as Chairperson of Cyngor Bwddaidd Cymru - Buddhist Council of Wales.

Fame at last :!:

Congratulations! BTW there's something I find very intriguing about the Welsh language. Must be the influence of my ancestors. I can't speak a word of it, though. :roll: Is there a Welsh version of the Heart Sutra?

Gassho
Bansho