Online sitting/zazenkai vs sitting along/in person

[Guest]

I've been around Treeleaf for about 6 months now I think, and have been sitting much longer than that, yet somehow, despite my best efforts I can't seem to easily get into online sitting.

When I first started here I sat a few times with a group in Europe and the US, which was at 5 am my time (Asia-pacific), which was ideal as that's around the time I like to sit. However when the clocks changed it suddenly became 4 am, and I continued to sit by myself at my usual times.

I also attend zazenkai at a dojo not far from where I am, and although they do an online sitting most mornings, I still find I prefer to sit by myself rather than have the mobile phone or a laptop running.

I feel a bit like I'd like to sit with others more often, but whilst I like the idea of sitting with others over the internet I just can't seem to get the hang of it, despite knowing that in terms of the ritual and routine of it I would probably learn a lot.

I'm not really asking for solutions, it's a case of scheduling and personal preferences, but I do wonder how many regulars in Treeleaf also rarely participate in online sittings, and how they find ways to participate? I want to get more involved since it is my hope to participate in Jukai this year if possible, so would inevitably need to make the extra effort for anything that involves.

Sattday

Dan

[Jundo]

I would just offer this modern Koan:

WHO is this that cannot "get into" online sitting?

Is not this "get into" or "not get into" between one's own ears?

Is the man of no rank entering and exiting your eyes "getting into" you?

Is Zazen truly something that can be "gotten into" or "escaped from"?

Should you suspend feelings of "here vs. there, now vs. then" all time and space collapses.

Sit by oneself, sit as a group ... but Just Sit.

However, if one cannot "get into" sitting such way, then they might see the source of such resistance as their own thinking.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Nanrin]

I do wonder how many regulars in Treeleaf also rarely participate in online sittings, and how they find ways to participate?

I've been here for five (!) years and I rarely join in online sittings due to a poor internet connection and a highly variable schedule. I have short periods where I feel inclined to comment, and months where I just quietly read the forum highlights. Both modes are ways of participating. In any case, I join everyone in sitting each day as I chant, put on the robe, and sit in stillness. Camera on or off, internet connected or not, same room or different room, it's all the same.

There's a lot that goes on in preparing for Jukai - commitments, service, donations, readings, discussions, sewing, and joining in ceremonies and retreat. I don't think joining in group sits outside of zazenkais (available on-demand through time and space) is required - in past years it's been a pleasant suggestion at most.

Gassho,

Emma/Nanrin

sat

[Bion]

I've been around Treeleaf for about 6 months now I think, and have been sitting much longer than that, yet somehow, despite my best efforts I can't seem to easily get into online sitting.

When I first started here I sat a few times with a group in Europe and the US, which was at 5 am my time (Asia-pacific), which was ideal as that's around the time I like to sit. However when the clocks changed it suddenly became 4 am, and I continued to sit by myself at my usual times.

I also attend zazenkai at a dojo not far from where I am, and although they do an online sitting most mornings, I still find I prefer to sit by myself rather than have the mobile phone or a laptop running.

I feel a bit like I'd like to sit with others more often, but whilst I like the idea of sitting with others over the internet I just can't seem to get the hang of it, despite knowing that in terms of the ritual and routine of it I would probably learn a lot.

I'm not really asking for solutions, it's a case of scheduling and personal preferences, but I do wonder how many regulars in Treeleaf also rarely participate in online sittings, and how they find ways to participate? I want to get more involved since it is my hope to participate in Jukai this year if possible, so would inevitably need to make the extra effort for anything that involves.

Sattday

Dan

My approach is that somedays it benefits me to be sitting with others, and some days it surely benefits others who might find encouragement or might feel at ease because of company or emotional support. Since I never know what day is for whom, I just offer myself to the sangha and choose to be there as often as I can, though some days I may not feel like setting up the computer.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Houzan]

My approach is that somedays it benefits me to be sitting with others, and some days it surely benefits others who might find encouragement or might feel at ease because of company or emotional support. Since I never know what day is for whom, I just offer myself to the sangha and choose to be there as often as I can, though some days I may not feel like setting up the computer.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

Thank you, Bion. I sit regularly in the 1,5 hrs zazenkais in the timeless timezone. And i have to say, to see you, and all the rest that reliably join the live sitting, is a big encouragement [emoji120][emoji4]

Hope life circumstances will soon allow me to join live and participate in more 4hrs zazenkais++.

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

[Seiko]

I'm not really asking for solutions

Hi Dan,
That's good, because I can't provide a solution - just tell how I see things. But of course, my opinion is merely that, my opinion.
If I cannot sit "live" at Treeleaf, I sit with the recordings. For me, there is no distinction, we may be separated by oceans, time zones and electronics, but we sit together as if in the same room.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Bion]

Online sitting/zazenkai vs sitting along/in person

Thank you, Bion. I sit regularly in the 1,5 hrs zazenkais in the timeless timezone. And i have to say, to see you, and all the rest that reliably join the live sitting, is a big encouragement [emoji120][emoji4]

Hope life circumstances will soon allow me to join live and participate in more 4hrs zazenkais++.

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

Well, thank you!
I was referring to daily sits on the schedule, not just the zazenkai. Before I committed to the morning practice we have now, I made it a point to sit in the FSR ( Free Sitting Room found here : https://www.treeleaf.org/now/go.php?l=fsr ) as often as I could. You never know who might be there waiting for someone to sit with, or who might hop in and offer company. It’s quite lovely

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[k1982]

I also live in Japan and there are two groups around 8:00pm our time that have scheduled sittings. I wake up at 3:30am for work so it really isn't the IDEAL time for me, but as life flows and does what it does I've found the ideal time for me is whenever I can do it. The kiwi/Europe group also sits around 2:30 our time just fyi!

I do understand your feelings of a disconnectedness with online sits, but what I did to remedy that was reach out to the people you see there frequently. Send them a message, start a conversation privately, make a connection. The faces become friends, and you can start to look forward to seeing them sitting there waiting for you (and in turn, you waiting for them!).

You get what you give!

Gassho,
Kyle
sattoday

[Guest]

Some interesting and thoughtful responses here, many thanks.

@Jundo: That 'who is it', has become something of a naturally arising Koan during sitting in recent weeks. It's a question that draws a blank, a brick wall, there's nothing there, I can see the phenomena that arise from it, but the observer is a non-entity, only discernible through the observed phenomena, nothing to name or latch hold of, like trying to grab the wind.

On a more prosaic level, it's more a case of my wanting to participate more and not quite being able to fit it into my daily routine. Perhaps it's something that will come along after my upcoming move and change of work. In any case there is this sense of wanting to participate more, contribute more, sit more with others even though disinclined to by habit.

@Nanrin: I'm much the same, usually I just quietly read new posts and follow along in the background, occasionally commenting but mostly just absorbing and learning, and of course sitting, that more than anything. I should really get the zazenkai schedule out and look at some of the timings. It may be that I can find ways to make them fit, although family life makes it hard to be left to stare at a wall for more than an hour without some matter calling me away, but love for family sometimes demands that so I don't begrudge it.

@Bion: I didn't think of it that way, but I like it. It's a nice way to make sitting less about 'my zazen' and more about being open to others, which if I am not mistaken is the main point of the Boddhisatva vows. Something to take away and digest quietly, thanks.

@Seiko: That is something I've tried with the Soto zen online sittings, since they hold them towards the end of my workday but afterwards they put recordings online. I have to admit that I don't get much out of it. In the live online sittings I know that my being there can encourage those others who participate, we all respond to the bell, chant the same sutras, and maybe have a short chat before or after, but a recording to me is just that, the distinction just arises.

In any case, I'll be going into town this morning to sit with a small group, often only one or two since it's a Thursday morning. Sitting with/for others strikes me as important from the point of view of sangha, so a weak area to develop further perhaps, thanks again to all.

Sattday

Dan

[Guest]

@ k1982: It looks like I'll be just a few train stops from you as of next month, perhaps meet up to sit and do nothing sometime, or perhaps have coffee?

Timing and schedule can be highly flexible, and once I've moved it will be very much 9-6 with homelife in the evenings, I foresee that early mornings will become my best times, probably more so than now, but I do like that time of day, before it gets too hot and busy. Once the dust settles I may see who's sitting in workable times for me, and reach out as you suggest.

Have a good day anyway, and thanks for the input!

Sattday

Dan

[k1982]

It looks like I'll be just a few train stops from you as of next month, perhaps meet up to sit and do nothing sometime, or perhaps have coffee?

Timing and schedule can be highly flexible, and once I've moved it will be very much 9-6 with homelife in the evenings, I foresee that early mornings will become my best times, probably more so than now, but I do like that time of day, before it gets too hot and busy. Once the dust settles I may see who's sitting in workable times for me, and reach out as you suggest.

Have a good day anyway, and thanks for the input!

Sattday

Dan

I'm assuming this is directed at me (if not, apologies)! I would love to meet up and sit and/or do absolutely nothing. I do own a coffee shop so you can have a free coffee here Anything I can do to help, please let me know!

Gassho,
Kyle
sattoday

[Jundo]

Well, thank you!
.... I made it a point to sit in the FSR as often as I could. You never know who might be there waiting for someone to sit with, or who might hop in and offer company. It’s quite lovely

You might explain what is the "FSR" as not everyone may know ...

Gassho, J

stlah

[Jundo]

I'm assuming this is directed at me (if not, apologies)! I would love to meet up and sit and/or do absolutely nothing. I do own a coffee shop so you can have a free coffee here Anything I can do to help, please let me know!

Gassho,
Kyle
sattoday

Ah, me too! I want a free coffee!

PM me with your shop's location, next time I come into Tokyo maybe I can stop in ...

Gassho, J

stlah

[Bion]

You might explain what is the "FSR" as not everyone may know ...

Gassho, J

stlah

Yes, true! Apologies! Fixed. Thank you [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Jundo]

Some interesting and thoughtful responses here, many thanks.

@Jundo: That 'who is it', has become something of a naturally arising Koan during sitting in recent weeks. It's a question that draws a blank, a brick wall, there's nothing there, I can see the phenomena that arise from it, but the observer is a non-entity, only discernible through the observed phenomena, nothing to name or latch hold of, like trying to grab the wind.

A bit off topic, but it sounds like you are, in fact, looking for something there yet which is everywhere and all things. Like the eyeball looking for the eyeball, or peeling away the onion, looking for the origin of the onion scent, missing the onion all along the way until nothing is left, peeling away the "observed phenomena" until nothing is life that completely missing the onion's pungency which is everywhere and all around. Or perhaps you are someone standing in Times Square looking for "New York City"? Like that. Also, don't be so analytical about it, trying to stuff it into a fixed idea held between the ears of "source of the onion" or "the real New York City."

We Zen folks are not so much about looking for a "Watcher" or something like that, which is what you may be implying? Or some "source consciousness" or something like that? To do that is like clearing off the stage, firing the actors, chasing away the audience and knocking down the theatre building looking for the "True Source of the Drama."

Or looking at the seatbelts, the tires, the carburator, the glove box trying the find the "True Car," or stripping away the parts looking for the Car, thus missing the Car ... not to mention, more vitally, the Whole Flowing Road Trip!

Something like that.

Anyway, sorry, a bit off topic. Maybe I will make this another thread.

Gassho, J

stlah