Clarification of Right Understanding of Rebirth

[Seth]

Greetings, Sangha,

I apologize ahead of time for the longer post. Please forgive me.

I’d like to share some thoughts that I have on the Buddhist concept of Rebirth in my own words to check with the learned members of the Sangha to make sure I have a clear understanding of the concept so that I can incorporate this understanding in my practice.

Based on my reading of early Buddhist texts, various commentaries, and posts on these forums, it appears that the concept of Rebirth is more about the casual relationship between our karmic deeds and effects that these deeds have on future manifestations of consciousness.

My understanding is that “we” are composed of the five aggregates (form, feeling, perception, mental formations, and consciousness). Our subjective experience in life stems from these aggregates working together in concert with one another. More or less, this entails consciousness acting as a subject that observes the other aggregates working together as an object. We fool ourselves into thinking that this process is “us”, but in reality it is an empty process. A car without a driver so to speak.

Now, when the conditions that support this process cease (death), the five aggregates themselves cease. This includes “our” subjective experience of this process playing out. No consciousness transmigrates from this existence to the next. Rather, the consequences of our karmic actions conditions the consciousness of new life. This could be in the form of our habits and tendencies being past on to our offspring(s) or habits and tendencies of whole societies via the transmission of culture conditioning the consciousness of future generations to act in a particular way.

What are your thoughts on this explanation? Is my explanation in line with Right Understanding of Rebirth and will it support my practice?

Again, I apologize for the long post, but I want to make sure sure I am clear on this subject.



Seth

Sat/lah

[Bion]

You mentioning the “learned” members of the Sangha there makes it awfully difficult to even DARE reply. [emoji23]

I am sure Jundo will get around to answering your question soon enough. Give him a couple of hours. [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Seth]

You mentioning the “learned” members of the Sangha there makes it awfully difficult to even DARE reply. [emoji23]

I am sure Jundo will get around to answering your question soon enough. Give him a couple of hours. [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

I mean't "learned" the same way as one would say "distinguished" or "honorable" ladies/gentlemen. An honorific. Apologies, I did not mean to stifle discussion.



Seth

Sat/lah

[Bion]

No, no! I meant it in a funny tone [emoji1] It is all good!!!

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Jundo]

Hi Seth,

In my understanding of traditional teachings on rebirth, your description is very clear and accurate regarding the workings of Karma and Rebirth as traditionally explained ...

... until this last line, which is not so traditional:

No consciousness transmigrates from this existence to the next. Rather, the consequences of our karmic actions conditions the consciousness of new life. This could be in the form of our habits and tendencies being past on to our offspring(s) or habits and tendencies of whole societies via the transmission of culture conditioning the consciousness of future generations to act in a particular way.

In traditional understanding, the process is referring more specifically, not to effects on just our children and other descendants or society and culture in general, but to a particular causal stream and literal movement from one body and your present life, on to rebirth in a new physical body and a new particular life who is "you" (yet not, in the sense that what is traveling from body to body is not a "soul," but a causal stream like falling dominoes which does come to occupy a new fetus being conceived, giving it consciousness. The Karmic seeds which travel with this causal stream will cause the new baby in its life to suffer or enjoy certain bad or good effects in recompense for bad and good actions in this current and previous lives.) That appears to be the most common traditional belief. The Buddha seems to have expressed such views in the early Suttas, and Master Dogen, the founder of Soto Zen in Japan, seems to have expressed such views in some of his writings.

That said, such beliefs were never as central to Zen Buddhism as in other corners of Buddhism. Why? Primarily because Zen emphasizes that such system is created by our own mental ignorance from which we can be liberated immediately in this life. For that reason, while traditional rebirth is still present in the background of Zen teachings, the focus is more on the possibility of liberation from rebirth available to us now.

As well, many Buddhist modernists (I am happy to be one) are rather agnostic and skeptical about such a system of literal rebirth, and it is just not so important. I like to say that, future lives or not, please act good in this one, avoiding greed, anger and other bad things. Master Dogen seems to have emphasized the same focus on present good conduct, here and now, so long as we are alive in this life. I do not care about future heavens and hells so much, because I see people create heavens and hells in this life for themselves and those around them. If there are future lives, then the good acts will serve you ... and if there are no literal future lives, then the good acts will still free your heart and mind in this one.

I also like to believe in rebirth in the sense that we are reborn as every baby and blade of grass, star and worm and fish everywhere, which is also found in Master Dogen's writings. We are reborn as everything, today yesterday and tomorrow beyond time. The Buddha is said to have taught too that when we become liberated, all reality becomes liberated with us.

I also very much like your sense that our actions carry on to coming generations and future culture and society. I believe that too.

Sorry to run long. If I did not address your concerns, let me know.

Gassho, Jundo the Unlearned

stlah

[k1982]

That said, such beliefs were never as central to Zen Buddhism as in other corners of Buddhism. Why? Primarily because Zen emphasizes that such system is created by our own mental ignorance from which we can be liberated immediately in this life.

I like to think Bankei was, ultimately, pointing to this as well in his insistence on the unborn:

"Deep down, fundamentally, we are the 'unborn'. We never came into being and we never go out of being. All of these coming and goings are just pulses in the pattern."

This has always satiated my initial aversions to the concepts of rebirth in traditional Buddhism. Ymmv!

Kyle

stlah

[Seth]

Thank you for your clarification, Jundo. Rebirth is one aspect of Buddhism that has nagged at me for awhile. Not that it undermines my confidence in the Dharma. It's just that everything else makes so much sense that this concept in Buddhism sticks out like a red paint splotch on a white wall.

I do have one follow-up question for you about the casual stream of consciousness. From a traditionalist perspective, what is sustaining the consciousness from one's death bed to the fetus in the next life. How do these "dominoes" manifest and travel in this casual stream? Is this a non-conceptual discovery one needs to make for themselves during meditation or is there a way to explain this using ontological reasoning? For instance, I can comprehend the notion of being "reborn" via one's karma, through the transmission of karmic influences to the next generation (for example, if a father behaves abusively, it may lead to repercussions for his children's mental health, thereby extending its impact into future generations. In such a case, anger and hatred could be seen as being 'reborn' via this chain of cause and effect). However, I struggle to understand the idea of a causal flow that persists without a conditionally-dependent existence beyond the five aggregates and the principles of karma and causality.

Who knows. This might be only answerable for "someone" who has actually gone through the dying process.

Sorry to run long, but this is a dense topic.



Seth

Sat/lah

[Jundo]

I do have one follow-up question for you about the casual stream of consciousness. From a traditionalist perspective, what is sustaining the consciousness from one's death bed to the fetus in the next life. How do these "dominoes" manifest and travel in this casual stream? Is this a non-conceptual discovery one needs to make for themselves during meditation or is there a way to explain this using ontological reasoning? For instance, I can comprehend the notion of being "reborn" via one's karma, through the transmission of karmic influences to the next generation (for example, if a father behaves abusively, it may lead to repercussions for his children's mental health, thereby extending its impact into future generations. In such a case, anger and hatred could be seen as being 'reborn' via this chain of cause and effect). However, I struggle to understand the idea of a causal flow that persists without a conditionally-dependent existence beyond the five aggregates and the principles of karma and causality.

Yes, well, the Buddha never spelled out the details, so Buddhist philosophers have been trying to figure that out for 2000+ years. It is easier if there is a soul just to fly off to the next body but, since Buddhists reject a "soul," they had to go with the "tumbling dominoes" analogy and "Karma seeds" that move with various invisible mechanisms, including cause and effect moving through some hidden realm or ether, or something called the "storehouse consciousness" which is ... well, there is not evidence for any of this in modern scientific terms, so pretty much just ideas that folks cooked up to fill in the gaps. Here is a good recent article on the complexity of the entire debate these days:

https://www.lionsroar.com/how-do-we-make-sense-of-rebirth/

Who knows. This might be only answerable for "someone" who has actually gone through the dying process.

I have not heard many comments on this from dead people. If you mean from folks who have had so-called "near death/out of body" experiences, there are many questions and doubts on that too (I could point you to many of the talks and writings of Zen practitioner and neuro-scientist Jane Blackmore):

https://youtu.be/RnFmNAi5YU8

And then there is this old joke:

A monk asked a Zen Master, “What happens when you die?” The Zen master replied, “I don’t know.” The monk said, “What do you mean? Aren’t you a Zen master?” And the Zen master replied, “Yes, but I’m not a dead one.”

Now, that said, I will give you a couple of possible suggestions in defense of "rebirth" that I am toying with in my "Buddhism of the Future" writings. They are just speculative, just something to chew one.

One is that, as I wrote this week, our birth even one (1) time into this current life is rather ridiculous ...

You are here [alive now, able] to experience and contemplate your being here now, as well as to contemplate the fact that, in order for such experience to be occurring now, not a single physical event, chemical reaction, biological development or twist of evolution, not one during any moment throughout 13.8 billion years, failed to occur if that event, reaction, development or twist was somehow irreplaceable and necessary to your being here now. That is proven by your being here now to consider that fact. ... To summarize, never once, in the entire history of all universal history, not a single time among the endless atoms reacting, molecules coupling, couples coupling, floods flooding, earthquakes quaking, winds blowing and ancestors surviving among the countless events within events in every single moment of time, did a single left turn of events instead “hang a right” if that left turn was necessary for you, while a right would have led off elsewhere.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?21597-FutureBuddha-%2838%29-Further-Hunches

So, if such an unlikely, rather ridiculous event happened once, well, it might as well happen ridiculously again and again!

But another is from simulation theory, which is being raised with great seriousness by some truly "learned" folks, like this fellow ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmcrG7ZZKUc

... or another possible mechanism, the "Boltzmann Brain" ... an intelligence which may pop up by chance out of quantum fluctuations ... and that Boltzmann Brain could be dreaming all of us, and is us (or maybe is just me dreaming all of you ) ...

https://youtu.be/gtlWS9TaCnQ

... or in a "multi-verse," versions of you would be determined again and again, and it is possible that reality divides with our every choice and act ...

https://youtu.be/Ywn2Lz5zmYg

... which all would help explain why we find ourself alive despite the seeming extreme odds originally against it, in an environment which is wild but overall hospitable to the evolution of sentient life (as shown by our having evolved amid that environment) ...

... then, if we are like Mario in MarioCart (but self-aware, and not realizing we are characters in the simulation or Boltzmann dream) ... then, like game characters, when we "die" we may get "replays" again and again.

Why not? However, absent evidence, it is all just speculation and theory.

In the meantime, rebirth or not, live gently in this life, chop wood, fetch water, sit Zazen.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Seth]

Thank you for the time and effort that you put into your response, Jundo. It was insightful. Also, the Lion's Roar article was great. Thank you for sharing!



Seth

Sat/lah

[Seiko]

I am definitely reborn. The body heals it's own abrasions and grows new skin, hair, nails. Every Time I sneeze six brain cells die and are immediately replaced.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Jundo]

... Every Time I sneeze six brain cells die and are immediately replaced.

Well, to an extent.

And that leads to the Buddha's other teaching, that aging is in the nature of the human condition, and all things change and are impermanent.

We can flow with the truth of that too.

Gassho, J

stlah

[DGF]

Yes, well, the Buddha never spelled out the details, so Buddhist philosophers have been trying to figure that out for 2000+ years. It is easier if there is a soul just to fly off to the next body but, since Buddhists reject a "soul," they had to go with the "tumbling dominoes" analogy and "Karma seeds" that move with various invisible mechanisms, including cause and effect moving through some hidden realm or ether, or something called the "storehouse consciousness" which is ... well, there is not evidence for any of this in modern scientific terms, so pretty much just ideas that folks cooked up to fill in the gaps. Here is a good recent article on the complexity of the entire debate these days:

https://www.lionsroar.com/how-do-we-make-sense-of-rebirth/

I have not heard many comments on this from dead people. If you mean from folks who have had so-called "near death/out of body" experiences, there are many questions and doubts on that too (I could point you to many of the talks and writings of Zen practitioner and neuro-scientist Jane Blackmore):

https://youtu.be/RnFmNAi5YU8

And then there is this old joke:

A monk asked a Zen Master, “What happens when you die?” The Zen master replied, “I don’t know.” The monk said, “What do you mean? Aren’t you a Zen master?” And the Zen master replied, “Yes, but I’m not a dead one.”

Now, that said, I will give you a couple of possible suggestions in defense of "rebirth" that I am toying with in my "Buddhism of the Future" writings. They are just speculative, just something to chew one.

One is that, as I wrote this week, our birth even one (1) time into this current life is rather ridiculous ...

You are here [alive now, able] to experience and contemplate your being here now, as well as to contemplate the fact that, in order for such experience to be occurring now, not a single physical event, chemical reaction, biological development or twist of evolution, not one during any moment throughout 13.8 billion years, failed to occur if that event, reaction, development or twist was somehow irreplaceable and necessary to your being here now. That is proven by your being here now to consider that fact. ... To summarize, never once, in the entire history of all universal history, not a single time among the endless atoms reacting, molecules coupling, couples coupling, floods flooding, earthquakes quaking, winds blowing and ancestors surviving among the countless events within events in every single moment of time, did a single left turn of events instead “hang a right” if that left turn was necessary for you, while a right would have led off elsewhere.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?21597-FutureBuddha-%2838%29-Further-Hunches

So, if such an unlikely, rather ridiculous event happened once, well, it might as well happen ridiculously again and again!

But another is from simulation theory, which is being raised with great seriousness by some truly "learned" folks, like this fellow ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pmcrG7ZZKUc

... or another possible mechanism, the "Boltzmann Brain" ... an intelligence which may pop up by chance out of quantum fluctuations ... and that Boltzmann Brain could be dreaming all of us, and is us (or maybe is just me dreaming all of you ) ...

https://youtu.be/gtlWS9TaCnQ

... or in a "multi-verse," versions of you would be determined again and again, and it is possible that reality divides with our every choice and act ...

https://youtu.be/Ywn2Lz5zmYg

... which all would help explain why we find ourself alive despite the seeming extreme odds originally against it, in an environment which is wild but overall hospitable to the evolution of sentient life (as shown by our having evolved amid that environment) ...

... then, if we are like Mario in MarioCart (but self-aware, and not realizing we are characters in the simulation or Boltzmann dream) ... then, like game characters, when we "die" we may get "replays" again and again.

Why not? However, absent evidence, it is all just speculation and theory.

In the meantime, rebirth or not, live gently in this life, chop wood, fetch water, sit Zazen.

Gassho, J

stlah

Gassho

Diana
Sat

[Glen David]

Hi Seth and all
Some great answers and insights
When I first started to become interested in Buddhism, i also had some questions and difficulties about rebirth and any answers to life after death. Ive spent a few years looking into other religions and various ideas about afterlife. I just remain open to it now. Like Jundo has said, do everything you can in this life, and it will take care of itself. At the end, we all have to surrender our "self" to the that "other power" and death will take us. Nothing we can do but let go.

Im no where near being able to "let go" but its my practice.