What is a gaining thought? Isn't purposely non-doing a gainful thought or desire?

[Douglas]

Hello Everyone!

Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated!

As I continue to practice Zazen, my mind gets caught in recursive thought patterns, especially in regards to non-doing, or even "letting go" of a thought. "Letting go" of a thought is also a desire, the desire to let go of a thought! I find myself trapped. There is no place to go. This idea of "you" and "your thoughts" implies a separation, but I don't see that during my practice. There seems to be just awareness which includes thought. I cannot see any way to split them. Even when I find my mind wandering, when I notice it, that is a thought/memory of when my mind was wandering.

I know there is a story of a zen monk who tried to leave the monastery, but was told when he tried every door that "that's not your door" and in the end was told "if no door is yours, then just sit". This is how I feel. It's a very frustrating feeling.

- Sat Today

[Hoseki]

Hi Douglas,


I think you might be overthinking it. When you sit and a thought arrises just come back to open awareness. By sitting and returning when necessary is all there is to do. It's much like a child who is balancing on one foot. There isn't anything else to do but stay balanced. When they start to lean they try to return to the balanced position. When you think "let go" that's also a thought so just try coming back to awarness. With time you can come back without thinking of coming back. You just do it. Sort of like balancing yourself.

At least that's what its like for me. Hopefully, if I'm mistaken someone will correct me.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[Guest]

Hi Douglas,

This is a very good question. The desire to let go of a thought and finding yourself trapped is just what you are describing when you say that you are frustrated.

In the Fukanzazengi, Dogen does not say that we should try to control our minds (and this would work both ways of trying to think of something or trying not to think of something). In some ways this is where there is a distinction between Soto Zen and Rinzai Zen where in Rinzai there may be an attempt to let the monkey mind die.

When I encountered the Fukanzazengi, the part about "think of not thinking" and how to do it was to "think non-thinking" was a bit puzzling to me. When I learned that there are different words in Japanese to describe thinking, it began to make more sense to me. I believe that Dogen was speaking about "beyond thinking" which I believe is the word "hishiryo" which includes our usual understanding of thinking "shiryo"(which I think means something like the mind of measuring and judging) and not-thinking "fushiryo." So, Dogen is pointing to going beyond thinking and not-thinking and this beyond is what he is referring to as non-thinking. Just not getting caught up in either of the extremes. I like that Okumura Roshi when translating his teacher Uchiyama Roshi's writings referred to zazen as "opening the hand of thought." This has always meant to me to losen our grip on our thoughts. We give them space to come and go in our wide open field of awareness but we do not get caught up in them. It is like Shunryu Suzuki's statement of

'In zazen, leave your front door and your back door open. Let thoughts come and go. Just don't serve them tea.'

Gassho,

Daiman
St/Lah

[Nengei]

Hello Douglas,

Trapped is no way to have to feel during zazen, so if there is one thing you want to work on letting go of, I would try to let go of that feeling. You are right: there is nowhere to go.

Zazen is not always, and maybe not often, going to be whatever we picture it to be, and that's okay. Sometimes it is thought-filled. Sometimes I feel antsy. Sometimes I want to check my watch. In zazenkai I have thought Jundo must have certainly fallen asleep because how can it go on this long? Sometimes my brain goes down rabbit holes of thoughts. Letting go of thought does not mean there is no thought. Some things I try to remember (and let go of) during those moments: This time of sitting exists only for sitting; there is nothing else for this time, and because there is a timer, the number of minutes, seconds, breaths, are limited, so get to it. Thoughts are there and are always there, try to notice them as they go by and don't cling to them or get wallowed down by them. If all else fails, find that wispy thread of breath and follow it in, watch it turn from breathing in to breathing out, watch it go, then see it come back. There is no bar for doing zazen, other than just do it. There is no mark of doing a good job at zazen and there is no failure. This is it, right now, this moment, and if I am working on my next painting in my head, I am missing the opportunity right in front of me.

One thing that I have observed to have an effect on my mental activity during zazen is caffeine. No tea, a little sleepy, but okay. One cup of tea, not sleepy and okay. Two cups of tea, my mind gets a little grippy on those thoughts.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Seiko]

Hello Everyone!

Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated!

As I continue to practice Zazen, my mind gets caught in recursive thought patterns, especially in regards to non-doing, or even "letting go" of a thought. "Letting go" of a thought is also a desire, the desire to let go of a thought! I find myself trapped. There is no place to go. This idea of "you" and "your thoughts" implies a separation, but I don't see that during my practice. There seems to be just awareness which includes thought. I cannot see any way to split them. Even when I find my mind wandering, when I notice it, that is a thought/memory of when my mind was wandering.

I know there is a story of a zen monk who tried to leave the monastery, but was told when he tried every door that "that's not your door" and in the end was told "if no door is yours, then just sit". This is how I feel. It's a very frustrating feeling.

Hey Douglas
Thoughts are a process aren't they? They float down the river. I try not to go with them.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Douglas]

Hi Douglas,

This is a very good question. The desire to let go of a thought and finding yourself trapped is just what you are describing when you say that you are frustrated.

In the Fukanzazengi, Dogen does not say that we should try to control our minds (and this would work both ways of trying to think of something or trying not to think of something). In some ways this is where there is a distinction between Soto Zen and Rinzai Zen where in Rinzai there may be an attempt to let the monkey mind die.

When I encountered the Fukanzazengi, the part about "think of not thinking" and how to do it was to "think non-thinking" was a bit puzzling to me. When I learned that there are different words in Japanese to describe thinking, it began to make more sense to me. I believe that Dogen was speaking about "beyond thinking" which I believe is the word "hishiryo" which includes our usual understanding of thinking "shiryo"(which I think means something like the mind of measuring and judging) and not-thinking "fushiryo." So, Dogen is pointing to going beyond thinking and not-thinking and this beyond is what he is referring to as non-thinking. Just not getting caught up in either of the extremes. I like that Okumura Roshi when translating his teacher Uchiyama Roshi's writings referred to zazen as "opening the hand of thought." This has always meant to me to losen our grip on our thoughts. We give them space to come and go in our wide open field of awareness but we do not get caught up in them. It is like Shunryu Suzuki's statement of

Gassho,

Daiman
St/Lah

How very timely, I just started listening to Uchiyama Roshi’s “Opening the Hand of Thought” this afternoon just before reading your reply.

Just as you say, “think non-thinking” is a bit difficult to see. It’s like trying to directly see your own eyes with your eyes. How does one do that? I’ve often felt that observing thought is like that. I can only recall a memory of thinking a thought after the fact. Seeing thought with thought seems impossible. Your point about the translation is an interesting one; it reminds me of what Daitsu Tom Wright was saying about the difficulty in translating Jiko in the preface.

thank you!
- Sat today

[Douglas]

Hello Douglas,

Trapped is no way to have to feel during zazen, so if there is one thing you want to work on letting go of, I would try to let go of that feeling. You are right: there is nowhere to go.

Zazen is not always, and maybe not often, going to be whatever we picture it to be, and that's okay. Sometimes it is thought-filled. Sometimes I feel antsy. Sometimes I want to check my watch. In zazenkai I have thought Jundo must have certainly fallen asleep because how can it go on this long? Sometimes my brain goes down rabbit holes of thoughts. Letting go of thought does not mean there is no thought. Some things I try to remember (and let go of) during those moments: This time of sitting exists only for sitting; there is nothing else for this time, and because there is a timer, the number of minutes, seconds, breaths, are limited, so get to it. Thoughts are there and are always there, try to notice them as they go by and don't cling to them or get wallowed down by them. If all else fails, find that wispy thread of breath and follow it in, watch it turn from breathing in to breathing out, watch it go, then see it come back. There is no bar for doing zazen, other than just do it. There is no mark of doing a good job at zazen and there is no failure. This is it, right now, this moment, and if I am working on my next painting in my head, I am missing the opportunity right in front of me.

One thing that I have observed to have an effect on my mental activity during zazen is caffeine. No tea, a little sleepy, but okay. One cup of tea, not sleepy and okay. Two cups of tea, my mind gets a little grippy on those thoughts.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

Thanks you. Your Caffeine point is an interesting one. Maybe I should only drink ONE bag of the "Vanilla Energy Spice Tea" instead of two at one time!

I have been trying to do as you say, and for the most part it seems I do ok. Of course the evaluation is meaningless right? Sitting is for it's own purpose. Whatever benefit comes or not is ok. I do experience worry though sometimes, about how this translates outside of sitting. It's easy to let a thought go during sitting, because you are sitting and that's what you are doing. My concerns arise about how I would apply this to outside of meditation/Zazen practice. As we live, we must do some sort of evaluation of our thoughts to determine which ones DO need to be acted on. Maybe just being aware as we think is enough?

- Sat today

[Nengei]

Maybe just being aware as we think is enough?

Often, yes.

In the moment-to-moment living, bringing practice into the rest of life, we must decide what our priorities are, then engage in them using the Eightfold Path and the 16 Bodhisattva precepts as a guide. This is different from not getting twisted up into thoughts when we are sitting. Letting go of thoughts would not do when I am in front of my easel. But in each moment, some thoughts are helpful in the priorities of the moment, and some are not. I cannot say that my practice of zazen helps me be less distracted, but it does help me do that thing you mention: being aware. Is this thought right mind? If I act on this thought, is it helpful and not harmful? Since I'm working on something else, but this thought seems important, so I had better make a note or put it in my to-do list. Zazen, you see, that's the easy part. Living in the zendo of life, well, that's a bit harder. So, it depends on the thoughts. And of course, if the thoughts are troubling thoughts, or things you can't seem to put aside, or that are potentially causing harm, it can be helpful to talk about someone else with them.

Two texts that I think can be quite informative about bringing our practice into our daily lives are The Zen Master's Dance by Jundo Cohen Roshi, of some repute in this sangha, and Dogen Zenji's Instructions to the Tensho, greatly liked in Uchiyama Roshi's translation entitled How to Cook Your Life. The book approach can be very slow and usually doesn't bring sudden breakthroughs that will solve problems, so in the meantime, keep practicing and keep learning, keep helping others, and keep asking questions.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Douglas]

Often, yes.

In the moment-to-moment living, bringing practice into the rest of life, we must decide what our priorities are, then engage in them using the Eightfold Path and the 16 Bodhisattva precepts as a guide. This is different from not getting twisted up into thoughts when we are sitting. Letting go of thoughts would not do when I am in front of my easel. But in each moment, some thoughts are helpful in the priorities of the moment, and some are not. I cannot say that my practice of zazen helps me be less distracted, but it does help me do that thing you mention: being aware. Is this thought right mind? If I act on this thought, is it helpful and not harmful? Since I'm working on something else, but this thought seems important, so I had better make a note or put it in my to-do list. Zazen, you see, that's the easy part. Living in the zendo of life, well, that's a bit harder. So, it depends on the thoughts. And of course, if the thoughts are troubling thoughts, or things you can't seem to put aside, or that are potentially causing harm, it can be helpful to talk about someone else with them.

Two texts that I think can be quite informative about bringing our practice into our daily lives are The Zen Master's Dance by Jundo Cohen Roshi, of some repute in this sangha, and Dogen Zenji's Instructions to the Tensho, greatly liked in Uchiyama Roshi's translation entitled How to Cook Your Life. The book approach can be very slow and usually doesn't bring sudden breakthroughs that will solve problems, so in the meantime, keep practicing and keep learning, keep helping others, and keep asking questions.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

Thank you! I will definitely be checking out these books. Your perspective while painting is quite good. I'll think on that; though not too tightly!

Much appreciation to all the responses. I have no local Sangha to go to that is local to me (I live in Fredericksburg, VA, so if you know anybody...). There was a Soto priest who had sitting sessions here but he moved back to New Mexico during the pandemic.

- Sat today

[Nengei]

I live in Fredericksburg, VA

I don't know anyone there now, but I did live in nearby Stafford for a few years. I always liked getting down to Fredericksburg. But, that was, oh, 35 years ago now... Maybe one day it will be you leading a sitting group!

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Houzan]

What is a gaining thought? Isn't purposely non-doing a gainful thought or desire?

Thank you all, for the question and the wise replies above [emoji120]

I asked this same question (if I understand it correctly) to the local (3-4 hrs drive away..) Soto priest here in Norway. His reply was helpful to me:

He told me to imagine myself as a Olympic spear thrower. Once you start to run you “just do”. All the training coming into fruition. This is not the space for training, but for doing. Leave all the judgments about what you are doing behind. Pick them up when the spear has landed.

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

[Heath Thompson]

Hello Everyone!

Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated!

As I continue to practice Zazen, my mind gets caught in recursive thought patterns, especially in regards to non-doing, or even "letting go" of a thought. "Letting go" of a thought is also a desire, the desire to let go of a thought! I find myself trapped. There is no place to go. This idea of "you" and "your thoughts" implies a separation, but I don't see that during my practice. There seems to be just awareness which includes thought. I cannot see any way to split them. Even when I find my mind wandering, when I notice it, that is a thought/memory of when my mind was wandering.

I know there is a story of a zen monk who tried to leave the monastery, but was told when he tried every door that "that's not your door" and in the end was told "if no door is yours, then just sit". This is how I feel. It's a very frustrating feeling.

Hi Douglas,

I'm new here and don't have much experience in Zen, but I might be able to help with your question, so I throw my answer out here and you will know if anything works for you, or not. Obviously, this is not a "Treeleaf" answer but a personal one...

Descartes was known for saying "I think, therefore I am." In my experience, he would have been more accurate to say, "I am, therefore I think." If you look at your own words, you can see that you already know the answer on one level but might be overlooking it.

You say, "My mind gets caught in recursive thought patterns," - this means that something of "you" has identified that it is not the mind itself, and it recognizes that this mind is trapped in patterns. What is this thing that looks at the mind and sees that thoughts are trapped in a pattern? If you are not your thoughts then what are you?

If a thought comes and goes, what does it enter, and what does it leave behind? There must be something, right? Something that is recognising what is happening.

You said "This idea of "you" and "your thoughts" implies a separation, but I don't see that during my practice."

What doesn't see that? What is seeing that "you" and "your thoughts" are not separate? I'm not asking you to answer these questions in the forum - to me, and my little knowledge of zazen, I would say that this is the very essence of why we sit. To begin to experience what is having the thoughts, what thinks it is sitting.

The paradox is, that the feeling of being trapped is a thought in itself. The mind has identified with this "situation" and has decided that it feels trapped. It has made an assessment and concluded with something that makes sense to it, however, once the mind has stopped its attempts to judge what is happening, and its needs to find purpose have subsided then its seeing returns to simplicity. To a looking without an object or subject.

Another paradox is that the absence of thought reveals itself as fullness. The mind, the ego, the individual self that seeks to reinforce its own meaning, is a lie. It doesn't exist. How can you stop something that isn't there? You cannot. You can only see through the truth of Existence through the experience of just sitting.

By just sitting, the mind doesn't have a role to play. It doesn't need to understand. The fact of noticing the patterned thoughts, and the idea of being in a trap, has first been noticed by the Truth of what you are, and has then had meaning attached to it by your mind. But your mind is not needed. You are the watcher of thoughts as they come and go like birds flying one way or another. Once they have gone, you notice the still sky.

[Jundo]

Hello Everyone!

Any insight on this would be greatly appreciated!

As I continue to practice Zazen, my mind gets caught in recursive thought patterns, especially in regards to non-doing, or even "letting go" of a thought. "Letting go" of a thought is also a desire, the desire to let go of a thought! I find myself trapped. There is no place to go. This idea of "you" and "your thoughts" implies a separation, but I don't see that during my practice. There seems to be just awareness which includes thought. I cannot see any way to split them. Even when I find my mind wandering, when I notice it, that is a thought/memory of when my mind was wandering.

I know there is a story of a zen monk who tried to leave the monastery, but was told when he tried every door that "that's not your door" and in the end was told "if no door is yours, then just sit". This is how I feel. It's a very frustrating feeling.

Hi Douglas,

You describe a kind of obsessive fixation on something which should be a grand relaxing and letting go. It is a bit like someone trying to ride a bicycle, or even walk, who becomes fixated on "now I must bend my right leg, now I must bend my left," to the point that they cannot move, then trip over themselves. Just relax, let go, let it happen naturally by not trying. Relax, release and drop away all effort.

In your case, I would not recommend attempting "open awareness" now, or trying to "stay balanced" (we never try to stay balanced in Zazen, just another form of trying.) In fact, put down all trying. I would follow the breath. Just feel the breath (don't think anything particularly about it, don't count the breaths) as the breath gently enters and exits at the nose. Feel it, but don't even think "in" or "out" (it does not need you to do that, and breath takes care of itself) and just breathe naturally. Keep your attention there until other thoughts do not become objects of fixation. When you do relax, if you do feel untangled from thoughts, when you feel that you have relaxed from "trying," then you might move to "open awareness" for some time, then back to following the breath if thoughts start to tangle again.

As has been said, Shikantaza Zazen is not about stopping thoughts. It is about not grabbing on, playing with them, getting tangled in their long chains when they appear and come into mind. The train of thoughts comes through the station of the mind, and we just don't get on, letting the trains pass on through.

The river just flows, it does not try to flow, it does not search for the water. The wind just blows, it does not try to blow or search for the air.

Somebody above said to "try to notice the thoughts as they go by," but do not do that. Just let them flit by, like trains passing through the station, or passing clouds through the open blue sky, unmolested by your efforts.

It’s like trying to directly see your own eyes with your eyes. How does one do that? I’ve often felt that observing thought is like that. I can only recall a memory of thinking a thought after the fact. Seeing thought with thought seems impossible.

The eye is foolish to search for the eye, like a man searching for his glasses which are already on the tip of his nose. Give up the search, and trust that the eye is already found. Don't try to find the thoughts, don't try to find some self, don't try to find some essence, don't try to stop the thoughts, just put it all down. Just drop the searching and the trying, radically to the bone, and all is found. It is like someone in Times Square searching for New York City as someplace distant and apart. Once he gives up the search for something apart, and trusts that one has already arrived, the Big Apple is found. It is the very hunt and search which keeps one from realizing what is present, so radically drop the hunt and search in the bones.

Do not try to "be aware" during Zazen or try anything at all. (One might nurture more awareness of one's thought patterns perhaps off the cushion, but not on.) On the cushion, give up all trying, like someone putting down a heavy burden, letting it float away as if washed down a river. Just let the trying go.

I like the example of the Olympic spear thrower mentioned, but I would not even try to "Just Do." I would not try to hit any target, or even try to not try. I would just release all effort and rest in completion, where no effort need be made and all is already done. Shikantaza is strange, in that the target is hit not as some distant goal, but right here ... when we give up all attempt to throw. Put down all need to do, and just realize the Zafu is the target and you are the spear already hitting the mark just by sitting.

Sit just to sit, with nothing to do but sitting, sitting as the goal reached in sitting, sitting with trust that not a drop is lacking from this act of sitting. Sitting as the target reached just by butt on cushion, nothing more to do, no other place to be, during the time of sitting. Don't try to do anything else, put down all need to do anything else ... put down all intentional need to find the thoughts, breathe, walk or anything.

If distractions or obsessions come, just follow the breath ...

Gassho, J

stlah

tsuku0.jpg

[Jundo]

Hi Douglas,

I'm new here and don't have much experience in Zen, but I might be able to help with your question, so I throw my answer out here and you will know if anything works for you, or not. Obviously, this is not a "Treeleaf" answer but a personal one...

Descartes was known for saying "I think, therefore I am." In my experience, he would have been more accurate to say, "I am, therefore I think." If you look at your own words, you can see that you already know the answer on one level but might be overlooking it.

You say, "My mind gets caught in recursive thought patterns," - this means that something of "you" has identified that it is not the mind itself, and it recognizes that this mind is trapped in patterns. What is this thing that looks at the mind and sees that thoughts are trapped in a pattern? If you are not your thoughts then what are you?

If a thought comes and goes, what does it enter, and what does it leave behind? There must be something, right? Something that is recognising what is happening.

You said "This idea of "you" and "your thoughts" implies a separation, but I don't see that during my practice."

What doesn't see that? What is seeing that "you" and "your thoughts" are not separate? I'm not asking you to answer these questions in the forum - to me, and my little knowledge of zazen, I would say that this is the very essence of why we sit. To begin to experience what is having the thoughts, what thinks it is sitting.

The paradox is, that the feeling of being trapped is a thought in itself. The mind has identified with this "situation" and has decided that it feels trapped. It has made an assessment and concluded with something that makes sense to it, however, once the mind has stopped its attempts to judge what is happening, and its needs to find purpose have subsided then its seeing returns to simplicity. To a looking without an object or subject.

Another paradox is that the absence of thought reveals itself as fullness. The mind, the ego, the individual self that seeks to reinforce its own meaning, is a lie. It doesn't exist. How can you stop something that isn't there? You cannot. You can only see through the truth of Existence through the experience of just sitting.

By just sitting, the mind doesn't have a role to play. It doesn't need to understand. The fact of noticing the patterned thoughts, and the idea of being in a trap, has first been noticed by the Truth of what you are, and has then had meaning attached to it by your mind. But your mind is not needed. You are the watcher of thoughts as they come and go like birds flying one way or another. Once they have gone, you notice the still sky.

Hi Douglas,

I would advise to put down the intellectual answers and just sit for now.

If Descartes were a Zen fellow, he might experience, "thinking non-thinking, leaping through "I" "you" "am" and "am not," yet also each and all of those things."

Gassho, J

stlah

[Heath Thompson]

Oh yes, that made me laugh about Descartes. I also realized that my answer could read as though I am suggesting people think about who/what is thinking during Zazen, which will serve to fill the head with more thought.