Zazen "doing nothing" vs "being aware" vs "observing"

[Hoseki]

Hi Jundo,

Guo Gu has a completely different view on this. Since Shikantaza derives from Silent Illumination, I wonder what your thoughts are on the following excerpt starting at minute 56.
...

Gassho
Sat

Hi,

I just wanted to say that Gu's position indicates that thoughts only arrise from attachments. Is that right though? If a song pops into my head is it because I'm bored and trying to avoid the boredom? Maybe, but I'm not so sure. Anyway I awake Jundo's take.


Gassho,

Hoseki

[Jundo]

Hi Jundo,

Guo Gu has a completely different view on this. Since Shikantaza derives from Silent Illumination, I wonder what your thoughts are on the following excerpt starting at minute 56.

Hi Inshin,

I think he is confusing some different meanings of "wandering thoughts." So, for example, there are only a few ways to deal with thoughts in meditation:

(1) Stop all thoughts completely. This can happen in Shikantaza too, but is most often associated with very deep concentration meditations.

(1A) There are also practices of deep concentration which take us closer and closer to a stopping of thoughts, with an "the less thoughts the better" attitude. Simplifying and lessening of thoughts tend to happen in Shikantaza, but we let it happen naturally without thinking "less is better."

(2) Have thoughts arise from time to time, but we "pay them no nevermind," do not tangle with them, do not get caught in them, let them drift away, with very silent and clear spaces between thoughts. Soon, we may even find that the sometime thoughts become like gossamer, translucent and light, such that even the silent and clear "shines through" and illuminates the thoughts that drift through. Also, the hard separation between the subjective self and thoughts softens or drops away, very much like there may be a table and chair in the room which we see with our open eyes, and they are "just there, as it is," but we don't get caught in judgements and long thoughts about the table and chair. In fact, we might even see but not think about the table and chair, and the hard divisions of "table vs. chair vs. myself" become forgotten. Table-chair-myself is swept up in wholeness. The light and wholeness of emptiness shines in the table and chair, which are somehow there but not there. So it is with thoughts that drift through, there but not. This is the Shikantaza way (and, I believe, traditional Silent Illumination around Dogen's time).

The difference from (1) and (1A) is that thoughts do quiet and settle, but we do not try to force it or think that "meditation is only good when there are no thoughts, and the closer we get to having no thoughts." We literally are sitting in equanimity and non-attachment to whether there are thoughts or no thoughts, even as thoughts do tend to quiet down and become simpler. There is no "confusing of principle and relative truth (the ultimate and relative)" here, as Guo Gu implies, because one experiences one as the other ... that both "thoughts or no thoughts" are all clarity, wholeness, Buddha, ultimate, silent etc.

(3) Wallowing in thoughts, caught in our ordinary thought trains of thought following thought, tangled, emotionally reacting, analyzing, planning and plotting, thinking and pondering things like we do in ordinary life. This is bad, we don't do this in any kind of Zazen or meditation.

(4) Using thoughts in a directed manner, e.g., directing thoughts to a mantra, imagining a visual image of a Buddha, etc. These are lovely practices, but not Shikantaza, and they tend to take the meditator out of this world to some "other realm" kind of experience. Shikantaza realizes the "silent clear wholeness" in this world of tables, chairs, thoughts.

Uchiyama, Okumura and the like say that thoughts are just like "secretions of the brain" like secretions of the stomach, so teach (2). The image is not so attractive, but their point is that thoughts just come like the stomach just rumbles ... no problem if we don't make it a problem. If the stomach rumbles, and you react with "Oh, how embarrassing, I am hungry, so where should I go for lunch, I want pasta ... etc. etc. etc.," that is you adding additional thoughts and judgements and a separation of "I" to the simple sound. Rumble is just rumble, no need to get tangled in it, and then it does not interfere in Zazen. (Of course, we don't want constant rumbles either, like constant storming mind. If you have constant rumbles, that is a problem ... and you should see a doctor, take antacids, or talk to your teacher about, for example, focusing on the breath, taking a mantra or Koan phrase or the like to get the "brain rumbling" down to a less stormy level.)

Is Guo Gu saying to stop all thoughts, as in (1)? If he is, then that is not our practice. I don't think he is saying that. I think that he is saying that the less thoughts, the better, so he has that aspect of (1A). We are both saying that (3) is not good. But he seems to imply that (2) is some kind of wallowing, which it is not. I think he fails to recognize that thoughts can come and go in (2), but we can allow so without our getting tangled, but with silence, clarity and wholeness arising even so.

As to his comment that:

"It is precisely because of attachment that wandering thoughts emerge. If a person does not have attachment, the mind does not wander. Mind wanders because of craving and desire. This is in all the meditation manuals, from India to Central Asia to East Asia. We have wandering thoughts? Because we have a tendency of grasping and rejecting. What is that? (It is) Attachment. So we cannot say, 'I just allow them to be, I just don't attach to them' as if we allow them to perpetuate."

One can have thoughts without grasping or rejecting the thoughts. Having thoughts come, but our not grasping them, is not "mind wandering." One can have thoughts without being attached to thoughts, just like one can have a table in the room without grasping, rejecting or being attached to the table. If there is a table in the room, or no table in the room, it has no effect on my Zazen. Likewise for having thoughts or no thoughts. Even so, thoughts tend to simplify, become clear and light, become fewer in Shikantaza ... no thoughts in between. However, we don't seek or chase that ... it just tends to happen. One can "pay the table no nevermind," not think about the table in the room, likewise for some thoughts that pass through the room of the mind. Guo Gu seems not so sure himself here, but seems to confuse any thoughts with being some kind of wallowing? He seems to think that any thoughts must involve some kind of attraction, rejection and attachment which must be tangled with the thoughts, or their causes? Almost all of the "meditation manuals from India" etc. which he mentions would have to do with type (1) and type (4) meditation, which emphasize "thoughts are bad in themselves." If Guo Gu asserts that all thoughts of the brain are due to "attachments," then that is a traditional view that is just physiologically and psychologically incorrect and smacks more of so called "hinayana" (not used here in pejorative sense) approaches that seem to eliminate all thoughts. Saying that thoughts are due to attachments is no more true than saying that "stomach rumbles are due to attachments."

On the other hand, is Guo Gu saying that we should be completely free of all attachment and the thoughts will stop? That is not our way. Our way is to be completely free of attachment whether there are thoughts or no thoughts. Thoughts will tend to quiet, sometimes stop, but we are unattached in any case.

Also, what Guo Gu presents is not the only view of Silent Illumination, and it may not even be traditional Silent Illumination. I often note that Guo Gu is NOT teaching the one and only interpretation of Silent Illumination. He is teaching a way developed by his teacher, Rev. Sheng Yen, in which Sheng Yen tried to figure out what was ancient "Silent Illumination" because the tradition had become very lost and confused. Sheng Yen actually tried several different interpretations, before settling on one. All are really forms of concentration meditation to attain varied stages of concentration. Gui Gu (aka Prof. Jimmy Yu) writes about that here, and even says that Sheng Yen turned to the "Hinayana/Agama" techniques of concentration, and he began to speak of "stages" of concentration:

A Tentative Exploration into the Development of Master Sheng Yen’s Chan Teachings

Sheng Yen Chan teachings does not constitute a stagnant, premeditated set of doctrines, but was a product of his own life experiences, interpretations of early Buddhism, and appropriations of the Japanese Buddhist response to modernity. Sheng Yen’s Chan was unique in that he synthesized the early Buddhist Agama teachings with the teachings embodied in the Platform Scripture. ...

~~~

It is worth noting, however, that sometime in the late 80s, possibly during his Intermediate Chan Classes, he began to widely teach this method [of mozhao/silent illumination] to many people by clarifying its subtle “stages” and concrete “methods” for practitioners to engage with when using this “methodless method.” The first published English work on a systematized presentation of the mozhao method
into three stages (of observing the body, observing the mind, and the state of enlightenment) is in 1993. However, this formulation kept on evolving from what he had taught before. By 1995, he formulated a fourfold stage. The first stage is observing the body sitting; the second
is a unified state of body, environment, and mind sitting; the third is the contemplation of emptiness. The fourth is the ineffable state of enlightenment.

Guo Gu describes some of the stages this way ...

Three Stages of Silent Illumination

The practice of silent illumination taught by Master Sheng Yen can roughly be divided into three stages: concentrated mind, unified mind, and no-mind. Within each stage are infinite depths. You need not go through all the stages, nor are they necessarily sequential.

... [Stage] 2.) Unified Mind
When your discriminating mind diminishes, your narrow sense of self diminishes as well. Your field of awareness—which is at first the totality of the body—naturally opens up to include the external environment. Inside and outside become one. In the beginning, you may still notice that a sound is coming from a certain direction or that your mind follows distinct events within the environment, such as someone moving. But as you continue, these distinctions fade. You are aware of events around you, but they do not leave traces. You no longer feel that the environment is out there and you are in here. ...

There are progressively deeper states of this second stage. When you enter a state in which the environment is you sitting, the environment may become infinite and boundless, bringing about a state of oneness with the universe. The whole world is your body sitting there. Time passes quickly and space is limitless. You are not caught up in the particulars of the environment. There is just openness of mind, clarity, and a sense of the infinite. This is not yet the realization of no-self; it is the experience of great self.

At this point, three subtler experiences may occur, all related to the sense of great self. The first is infinite light. The light is you, and you experience a sense of oneness, infinity, and clarity.

The second experience is infinite sound. This is not the sound of cars, dogs, or something similar. Nor is it like music or anything else you have ever heard. It is a primordial, elemental sound that is one with the experience of vastness. It is harmonious in all places, without reference or attribution.

The third experience is voidness. But this is not the emptiness of self-nature or of no-self that would constitute enlightenment. This is a spacious voidness in which there is nothing but the pure vastness of space. Although you do not experience a sense of self, a subtle form of self and object still exists. [JUNDO NOTE: This is teaching of a version of the higher Jhana concentration states that Sheng Yen is mixing into Silent Illumination here.]

These progressively deeper states are all related to samadhi states. When you emerge from them, you must try not to think about them anymore because they are quite alluring. Say to yourself, “This state is ordinary; it’s not it.” Otherwise, it will lead to another form of attachment. ...

[Stage] 3.) No-Self, No-Mind
...

The third stage of silent illumination is the realization of quiescence and wakefulness, stillness and awareness, samadhi and prajna, all of which are different ways to describe mind’s natural state. Experiencing it for the first time is like suddenly dropping a thousand pounds from your shoulders—the heavy burdens of self-attachment, vexations, and habitual tendencies. Prior to that, you may not know exactly what self-attachment or vexations are. But once you are free from them, you clearly recognize them.

Self-attachment, vexations, and habitual tendencies run deep. So practitioners must work hard to experience enlightenment again and again until they can simply rest in mind’s natural state. The key is to practice diligently but seek no results.

...

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/Guo-Gu.html

That is very good, and also very traditional in concentration meditation, but I think that was not the early approach to "Silent Illumination" back in the 13th century. Guo Gu's teachings, even as a scholar, seeks to justify his teacher's system, which is fine. But Silent Illumination, according to some scholars and historians, could be more of a radical "non-doing," non-seeking which very much resonates with Dogen's interpretation in Shikantaza. Shikantaza also leads to such a "putting down of the burdens," and maybe in more practical ways that we can even take into ordinary life more easily because we never ran from ordinary life and thoughts into such special states. I actually think that Shikantaza may be closer to the rebellion against "concentration states" that was early Silent Illumination. Sheng Yen says that Silent Illumination is goalless, but he seems to describe goals and desired states of concentration.

Interestingly, Guo Gu quotes at the very end of his lecture a traditional teaching, from the Platform Sutra I believe, that a "person of the Way ... neither seeks to discard wandering thoughts nor seeks ultimate truth." THAT'S SHIKANTAZA!!!! Guo Gu then says "this is the state of liberation ... the correct view," but does that not rather contradict everything he said just right before???

Did that answer the question?

Gassho, J

stlah

[Jundo]

PS - Please show this to Guo Gu, Inshin, if you are in contact. I would like to hear his response.

Or, I have his email, and we are sometimes in touch. I can send it to him, and the link here, if that is okay.

[Houzan]

Zazen "doing nothing" vs "being aware" vs "observing"

The way I read Shen Yeng and Guo Gu, they teach the very same Shikantaza as we practice, but using a different way of explaining it. From Sheng Yen’s book “the method of no method” which Guo Gu translated:

The stages was something Sheng Yen added later to help students he was teaching when he was not around. Maybe therefore more focus on “stilling the mind”.

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

[Jundo]

The way I read Shen Yeng and Guo Gu, they teach the very same Shikantaza as we practice, but using a different way of explaining it. From Sheng Yen’s book “the method of no method” which Guo Gu translated:
The stages was something Sheng Yen added later to help students he was teaching when he was not around. Maybe therefore more focus on “stilling the mind”.

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

Maybe. He changed what he was teaching several times, I think. Sometimes he had more stages and goals to attain in reaching those stages, sometimes less. I am not sure. Maybe he taught that at one time. He was also educated in Japan, studied Soto here, and may have had a strong Soto and Shikantaza influence at once time.

However, his book and some of Guo Gu's on "the method of no method" sure seem to have many stages and goals, even while saying not.

I am not criticizing that at all, and there are many good ways to make soup. I am just saying that it is a bit different from the radical goallessness of Shikantaza, its real power.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Houzan]

Zazen "doing nothing" vs "being aware" vs "observing"

Maybe. He changed what he was teaching several times, I think. Sometimes he had more stages and goals to attain in reaching those stages, sometimes less. I am not sure. Maybe he taught that at one time. He was also educated in Japan, studied Soto here, and may have had a strong Soto and Shikantaza influence at once time.

However, his book and some of Guo Gu's on "the method of no method" sure seem to have many stages and goals, even while saying not.

I am not criticizing that at all, and there are many good ways to make soup. I am just saying that it is a bit different from the radical goallessness of Shikantaza, its real power.

Gassho, J

stlah

[emoji120]

Guo Gu at least has a strong focus on goallessness the way I read it. He uses the word “contentment”. Sitting with contentment. And contentment is a one word summary of non-grasping or non-thinking, non-form and non-abiding (platform sutra?).

But I also read many “stages”. They do however stress that they are not stages that develop sequentially, and not something to be thought of as “achieved”, but signposts; a “if you are here, do x” sort of guide.

Personally I do prefer our approach. My mind tends to get caught up in «stages and performance».

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

[Inshin]

Thank you for your reply.

"person of the Way ... neither seeks to discard wandering thoughts nor seeks ultimate truth."

That's from Realising the Way by Yoka Daishi, though he also appears in Platform Sutra.

This is the view of someone who walked the Way all the Way through, view from the standpoint of Realisation.

Before that we are caught up in delusions, habitual tendencies and ignorance, and "Nothing further to seek as Truth is attaind in each moment" is just a conceptual understanding.

As Hakuin point out

"If someone without kensho makes a constant effort to keep his thoughts free and unattached, not only is he a great fool, he also commits a serious transgression against the dharma. He winds up in the passive indifference of empty emptiness, no more capable of distinguishing good from bad than a drunken man. If you want to put the dharma of non-activity into practice, you must put an end to all your thought attachments by breaking through into kensho.Unless you have kensho, you can never expect to attain a state of non-doing."


As I understood it, the function of Koan investigation is not used to quite the thoughts.

The above is just my curiosity and questioning, not an intention to oppose anything.

I don't know Guo Gu personally, I just stumbled on his lectures on YouTube and found it very interesting.

I don't see why it wouldn't be OK for you to enquire with him if you're in touch.

Gasho
Sat

[Jundo]

As Hakuin point out

"If someone without kensho makes a constant effort to keep his thoughts free and unattached, not only is he a great fool, he also commits a serious transgression against the dharma. He winds up in the passive indifference of empty emptiness, no more capable of distinguishing good from bad than a drunken man. If you want to put the dharma of non-activity into practice, you must put an end to all your thought attachments by breaking through into kensho.Unless you have kensho, you can never expect to attain a state of non-doing."

Hakuin was not a practitioner of, and did not understand, the radical nature of Shikantaza. He seems to have been a very troubled and searching soul.

Before that we are caught up in delusions, habitual tendencies and ignorance, and "Nothing further to seek as Truth is attaind in each moment" is just a conceptual understanding.

You have this backwards. Radical Just Sitting is freedom from delusions, habitual tendencies and ignorance.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Hoseki]

Hi Inshin,



I think trying to reach a point of non-thinking (Which I guess in this case means a silent mind) is a kind of grasping after a certain kind of mental state. As I understand it, we Soto folk are accepting of all that arises when we sit zazen. Some times our minds the thoughts will be few and far between other times they will be plentiful. I believe Uchiyama Roshi said in Opening the Hand of Thought that he had more thoughts in the summer when it was warm outside. That struck me as odd at first but when I thought about it I realized that our brains which produces thoughts (like the stomach produces acid) is influenced by our environment through our senses. I also think it’s worthwhile to look at the distinctions like the one between silent minds (little to no thoughts arising) in general.

Distinction such as an organism and their environment is a useful one when we are trying to model the standard life of an organism. If we want to know about rabbits we go watch them go about their rabbit business. What they eat, where they sleep, what tries to eat them etc... But these distinctions should be held lightly (like all thoughts really) that is to say we should try to be able to drop them from time to time. Sometimes a different point of view (different distinctions) helps illuminate some aspect of life that we didn't see before. Our points of view or perspectives enable us to see certain parts of life while also obscuring others. E.g. when I look through a telescope I can see the moon pretty well but if I swing the telescope towards my house I don't see it very clearly at all. So I see myself as distinct from the environment I live in. But am I not a part of the environment that my daughters live in? Are they not part of mine? These dichotomies to help us navigate the world. We pick up some from our family, some from our peers, and some we may come up with on our own. But they shouldn't ever have the last word on an issue. That kind of reification of thought leads us to get locked into views and the world simply exhausts them. Our words never capture the world they help us navigate they illuminate but also obscure. So we need to be able to shift views and that means what's "incorrect" or a “delusion” may be what we need to enlighten our understanding because they are not one but also not two. So we go about dropping some views while adopting others and switching back and forth as the need arises but in all cases we need an understanding of their limits.

So for us Soto folk we try to develop a radial equanimity for all that arises. When we sit zazen we are letting go of particular views and just allowing things to come and go without engaging, without picking up a perspective on them e.g. good, bad, sad etc...

I don't know if this the best way to try and engage with Gu comments but this is more or less what I thought about when listened to it and then read your comment above. I do want to add that I'm just a Zen student so I could be a little wrong or a lot wrong. But if Jundo were to correct me I was learn as a result. It would further develop my understanding. It sounds funny but it would mean the wrong step was a step in the right direction (for me._

Hopefully Jundo will correct me if I'm mistaken.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday/lah

[Inshin]

Hakuin was not a practitioner of, and did not understand, the radical nature of Shikantaza. He seems to have been a very troubled and searching soul.

I can't help it Jundo. Though not troubled anymore I am still searching soul myself

Gassho
Sat

[Houzan]

Zazen is not "doing nothing." It is not "not doing anything." That sounds like sitting on a log, twiddling one's thumbs, killing/wasting time.

I’m not too familiar with what “doing nothing” traditionally implies. I always thought of doing nothing” as one potential headline summary of your shikantaza teachings. Just like “opening the hand of thought”. “Doing nothing” (to me) means to physically not do anything but sitting and mentally to not grasp at anything (e.g. we let thoughts, incl. feelings, come and go as we can’t control them anyway, but we don’t interact with them). In other words we don’t want or need anything to be different from what it is. Therefore I take it to mean sitting with radical equanimity. Might be a non-traditional interpretation and the logic might be flawed, but I guess I sit correctly at the very least [emoji4]

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

[Jundo]

I’m not too familiar with what “doing nothing” traditionally implies. I always thought of doing nothing” as one potential headline summary of your shikantaza teachings. Just like “opening the hand of thought”. “Doing nothing” (to me) means to physically not do anything but sitting and mentally to not grasp at anything (e.g. we let thoughts, incl. feelings, come and go as we can’t control them anyway, but we don’t interact with them). In other words we don’t want or need anything to be different from what it is. Therefore I take it to mean sitting with radical equanimity. Might be a non-traditional interpretation and the logic might be flawed, but I guess I sit correctly at the very least [emoji4]

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

Hi Michael,

I think that it is probably an English language issue more than anything, but "doing nothing" in English has the sense of "just sitting around lazy and indecisive, pointless, killing time, passive and uncaring, ambivalent." We say "just sitting, twiddling our thumbs, like a bump on a log."

Just Sitting (caps) is not that. It is sitting with sincerity and dedication, upright with stable, balanced and comfortable posture, not grasping thoughts, in radical equanimity, but with conviction deep in the bones that this sitting is a complete act, the one thing to do in all time and space in that moment, sitting as the fulfillment and peak of the mountain of sitting. It is not "doing nothing," but rather, that Zazen is so complete that there is nothing left undone, nothing more that can be done, nothing more that need be done, but sitting in the time of sitting.

So, a rather different feeling and nuance.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Houzan]

Hi Michael,

I think that it is probably an English language issue more than anything, but "doing nothing" in English has the sense of "just sitting around lazy and indecisive, pointless, killing time, passive and uncaring, ambivalent." We say "just sitting, twiddling our thumbs, like a bump on a log."

Just Sitting (caps) is not that. It is sitting with sincerity and dedication, upright with stable, balanced and comfortable posture, not grasping thoughts, in radical equanimity, but with conviction deep in the bones that this sitting is a complete act, the one thing to do in all time and space in that moment, sitting as the fulfillment and peak of the mountain of sitting. It is not "doing nothing," but rather, that Zazen is so complete that there is nothing left undone, nothing more that can be done, nothing more that need be done, but sitting in the time of sitting.

So, a rather different feeling and nuance.

Gassho, J

stlah

[emoji120][emoji120]

Gassho, Michael
Sat

[shikantazen]

Hi Michael,

I think that it is probably an English language issue more than anything, but "doing nothing" in English has the sense of "just sitting around lazy and indecisive, pointless, killing time, passive and uncaring, ambivalent." We say "just sitting, twiddling our thumbs, like a bump on a log."

Just Sitting (caps) is not that. It is sitting with sincerity and dedication, upright with stable, balanced and comfortable posture, not grasping thoughts, in radical equanimity, but with conviction deep in the bones that this sitting is a complete act, the one thing to do in all time and space in that moment, sitting as the fulfillment and peak of the mountain of sitting. It is not "doing nothing," but rather, that Zazen is so complete that there is nothing left undone, nothing more that can be done, nothing more that need be done, but sitting in the time of sitting.

So, a rather different feeling and nuance.

Gassho, J

stlah

For me "doing nothing" symbolizes the true attitude of "radical acceptance" in shikantaza. If I do anything (use a technique, come back to object, observe etc..) it feels there is a success and failure and "radical acceptance" is thrown out of the window. Even "letting go of thoughts", I allow it to happen than take it as something that I am actively doing. The main attitude I keep in mind is, "non manipulation" of my experience. Just simply sit and allow my experience be as it is. I tell myself, "it is fine whatever happens during sitting". When I realize I'm caught up in long chain of thought, I'm already back. Nothing to do. Ofcourse I don't try to intentionally continue the thought. If an emotion is coming up, I let it come up, do its thing and let it pass. Same with all experience during sitting

If I do anything in sitting then it is watching if I'm trying to manipulate or control (or expect something out of) my sitting in anyway and if so let go of that.

Gassho,
Sam
SatLah

P.S. Ofcourse "doing nothing" doesn't mean we are lazy or go to sleep. We are very alert, holding the posture and allowing everything to be as it is

[Jundo]

For me "doing nothing" symbolizes the true attitude of "radical acceptance" in shikantaza. If I do anything (use a technique, come back to object, observe etc..) it feels there is a success and failure and "radical acceptance" is thrown out of the window. Even "letting go of thoughts", I allow it to happen than take it as something that I am actively doing. The main attitude I keep in mind is, "non manipulation" of my experience. Just simply sit and allow my experience be as it is. I tell myself, "it is fine whatever happens during sitting". When I realize I'm caught up in long chain of thought, I'm already back. Nothing to do. Ofcourse I don't try to intentionally continue the thought. If an emotion is coming up, I let it come up, do its thing and let it pass. Same with all experience during sitting

Lovely, Sam.

But of course, do not neglect this aspect either ...

It is sitting ... with conviction deep in the bones that this sitting is a complete act, the one thing to do in all time and space in that moment, sitting as the fulfillment and peak of the mountain of sitting.

Sitting is the posture and act of Buddhas and Ancestors sitting in our sitting.

Gassho, J

stlah