Zazen "doing nothing" vs "being aware" vs "observing"

[shikantazen]

Dear Sangha,

I'm contemplating "what we do with mind during zazen". I heard different versions

- Do Nothing. Leave the mind as is.
- Be fully aware of what's happening (sounds, bodily sensations etc)
- Observe what's happening (sounds, bodily sensations etc)

I have been sitting by "doing nothing". When my mind comes back from "getting caught up", I do nothing and simply sit (Ofcourse I hear sounds or feel body sensations but don't make any effort to be aware of them). I let my posture / zazen / awareness bring me back each time I'm distracted. I don't put my mind on any object or try to be aware of what's happening.

Does this sound right? Or do we need to make an effort to be aware of what's happening? If we need to be aware of what's happening, then is it different from "observing" (which is like vipassana's noting practice but not as active or fast, just observing what's most obvious)?

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Shinshi]

If you haven't read this, it might answer your question.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?16743-Drivin-Dogen-Understanding-Open-Spacious-Awareness

If it doesn't we can try again!

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Houzan]

Zazen "doing nothing" vs "being aware" vs "observing"

‘Doing nothing’ or ‘not doing anything’ is what i have understood is the essence. I do sense, as i cannot turn off the senses but I don’t ‘try’ to sense. Not doing anything’ I feel is not very precise because you do several things: breathing, sitting, sensing, etc. But it is the absolute minimum you can do without falling asleep (which is also ‘doing’ something). I found Okumura’s explanation helpful: you stop separating the perceiver from the perceived. Subject and object merges. That is ‘not doing anything’. Or so I have come to understand.

This is only my incomplete understanding. Thank you for posting the question[emoji120] Look forward to reading other perspectives.

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

[shikantazen]

In Zazen, we may place the mind on following the breath, the posture, the belly, in the palm of the upturned hands or in "Open Spacious Awareness." This "Open Spacious Awareness" is simply to have the place of attention on everything, and nothing in particular, with equanimity. In such sitting, the mind can move from and to anything in experience amid the field of awareness, or it can take in the entire field of awareness at once (or just a slice) ... but the key is equanimity. One is observing without judging, not thinking about, getting tangled in chains of thoughts about what one is experiencing....
.....

I can describe the experience as something like driving a car, not particularly thinking anything yet attentive. I sometimes see everything out in front of me, or maybe notice this or that as it passes. I am not particularly thinking anything, and the mind is clear, alert, just watching the road.
....
If you do find yourself lost in thoughts, let them go and return your full attention to observing the road and keep going.

Hi Shinshi, Thanks for that link. The above text is from that link. It looks like Jundo is saying it is the 3rd point in my initial post (observing). We don't "sit and do nothing". Just like using breath as an object, we place the mind on observing whatever is arising and go back to the object (observing) when we realize we are lost in thought. This is kind of like vipassana (noting practice) but instead of quickly noting specific sensations, we just observe whatever is obvious in our field of attention (can be specific sensations or overall field or slice of the field) in a relaxed way. Is that correct?

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Shinshi]

Hi Shinshi, Thanks for that link. The above text is from that link. It looks like Jundo is saying it is the 3rd point in my initial post (observing). We don't "sit and do nothing". Just like using breath as an object, we place the mind on observing whatever is arising and go back to the object (observing) when we realize we are lost in thought. This is kind of like vipassana (noting practice) but instead of quickly noting specific sensations, we just observe whatever is obvious in our field of attention (can be specific sensations or overall field or slice of the field) in a relaxed way. Is that correct?

Gassho,
Sam
ST

Well Jundo will be along to clarify I am sure, but yes that is how I see it. Our thoughts come and go like scenery. We don't judge them, we don't discriminate amongst them, we see them and let them go on their way. No thinking about, just experiencing them as they pass by.

I guess the last thing I would say is that it isn't about doing anything. There is no thing to do. I didn't get this for a long time. I would try to make shikantaza into a task to be completed. But that was erroneous.

No doing, just being.


At least that is what I think today.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Jundo]

Hi Guys,

I have "nothing to do" right at the moment, so time to respond.

Zazen is not "doing nothing." It is not "not doing anything." That sounds like sitting on a log, twiddling one's thumbs, killing/wasting time.

Zazen is radical "non-doing," i.e., doing the practice of sitting with equanimity, and a conviction in the heart that nothing need be done, nothing is lacking. Any need to do anything but sitting, all need to go any other place, is left aside. All that needs to be done is being done just by sitting.

We do not try to be aware or observe what is happening in any very intentional way. We are NOT trying to "observe observe observe, focus focus focus, be aware, be aware, be aware." It is just a light, easy awareness and observing without giving what is observed any particular thought. Thoughts may come and go like trains passing through a station, but we just do not get on. Frankly, we don't really care if we sense something or don't. We don't even care if we briefly think about something in or out of our field of vision ... it is natural to do so sometimes ... but we don't get caught there and we don't just sit there thinking. We do not wallow in thoughts, or get tangled in them, but just let them drift through.

Most importantly, one sits in radical equanimity, with the conviction deep in the bones that Zazen is a whole and complete doing, a sacred doing. It is the doing of the Buddha and Ancestors, complete and already all done. If you leave this latter part out (and, unfortunately, many popular Zazen or so-called "Shikantaza" instructions do) you are leaving the fuel out of the motor. One must sit with the conviction, deep in the bones, that there is not one drop lacking, not one other thing to do, no hole in need of filling, just by sitting. Sam, I think you left this part out of your description.

I hope that helps.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Kaitan]

Most importantly, one sits in radical equanimity, with the conviction deep in the bones that Zazen is a whole and complete doing, a sacred doing. It is the doing of the Buddha and Ancestors, complete and already all done. If you leave this latter part out (and, unfortunately, many popular Zazen or so-called "Shikantaza" instructions do) you are leaving the fuel out of the motor. One must sit with the conviction, deep in the bones, that there is not one drop lacking, not one other thing to do, no hole in need of filling, just by sitting.

ST Bernal

[Onkai]

No matter how many times I read or hear these instructions, they are helpful to come across again.

Gassho, Onkai
Sat lah

[Guest]

In a way it's not really possible to 'do nothing'. I find that when on the cushion I might be daydreaming, or trying to stop daydreaming, or watching the breath, perhaps using it as a sort of metronome, or any of other things the mind finds to do, it's all 'something.

My conception isn't so much trying to do the impossible nothing, since the brain continues to operate up until the point of death. Instead I just don't allow the mind to go chasing things. It's as if in zazen my mind is a dog that I've ordered to sit. It wants to be a good boy and sit, but there are interesting smells and things and I need to constantly remind myself to keep sitting and not wander off to investigate each passing thought.

Just my two cents

Sattday

Dan

[Houzan]

No matter how many times I read or hear these instructions, they are helpful to come across again.

Gassho, Onkai
Sat lah

Couldn’t agree more [emoji120]

Gassho, Michael
Satlah

[Seiko]

My go-to is Fukanzazenji

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Hoseki]

Dear Sangha,

I'm contemplating "what we do with mind during zazen". I heard different versions

- Do Nothing. Leave the mind as is.
- Be fully aware of what's happening (sounds, bodily sensations etc)
- Observe what's happening (sounds, bodily sensations etc)

I have been sitting by "doing nothing". When my mind comes back from "getting caught up", I do nothing and simply sit (Ofcourse I hear sounds or feel body sensations but don't make any effort to be aware of them). I let my posture / zazen / awareness bring me back each time I'm distracted. I don't put my mind on any object or try to be aware of what's happening.

Does this sound right? Or do we need to make an effort to be aware of what's happening? If we need to be aware of what's happening, then is it different from "observing" (which is like vipassana's noting practice but not as active or fast, just observing what's most obvious)?

Gassho,
Sam
ST

Hi Sam,

I'm not sure if this helps or not. I try to think of of the thoughts and sensations as the following. The world, cosmos, buddha-nature whatever phrase, suggest all of existence (including empty space) for you, is a dynamic place where things come into existance and then fade out of existance. We are a part of this dynamic world so when we sit our brain generates thoughts, feelings and sensations. They come into existence and then fade away again. But we just kind of witness it. We simply notice them come up and fade away. We don't engage with them. So it's sort of like allowing an itch to be an itch dispite how satasfying it would be to scratch (something I'm guilty of from time to time ) So when Jundo talks of radial equanimity he means we accept these thoughts and feelings as they are because they are the activity of buddha-nature. Out side of Zazen we have to engage thoughts and feelings to function (ignore your thurst for to long and you die!) but we still try to take part of that attitude of equanimity with the world as its presented to us. The precepts and vows can help us engage in health and helpful ways.

At least that's what it looks like to me right now. Who knows what tomorrow will bring ¯\_(ツ)_/¯.

Gassho,

Hoseki
sattoday

[Jundo]

We don't engage with them. So it's sort of like allowing an itch to be an itch dispite how satasfying it would be to scratch

Usually, we do not scratch during Zazen, and just let the itch be the itch. Do not resist it. We feel equanimity about it. There is a bit of "mind over matter" aspect, in which by ignoring the itch, the itch will likely just pass and go away.

However, if too bad, it is okay to briefly Gassho and scratch, although we really should not. In a strict Zendo, the monitor might hit us with the stick (we don't at Treeleaf) for moving too much. But if we do need to scratch, we accept that fact too. We accept the stick strike too. We feel equanimity about scratching and being struck.

Of course, we try not to wallow in scratching, just scratching scratching and scratching again. If we do so, I suggest seeing a doctor right away! Something is wrong. But if you need to see a doctor, accept that fact. Feel equanimity about it.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Hoseki]

Usually, we do not scratch during Zazen, and just let the itch be the itch. Do not resist it. We feel equanimity about it. There is a bit of "mind over matter" aspect, in which by ignoring the itch, the itch will likely just pass and go away.

However, if too bad, it is okay to briefly Gassho and scratch, although we really should not. In a strict Zendo, the monitor might hit us with the stick (we don't at Treeleaf) for moving too much. But if we do need to scratch, we accept that fact too. We accept the stick strike too. We feel equanimity about scratching and being struck.

Of course, we try not to wallow in scratching, just scratching scratching and scratching again. If we do so, I suggest seeing a doctor right away! Something is wrong. But if you need to see a doctor, accept that fact. Feel equanimity about it.

Gassho, J

stlah

Gassho
Hoseki

[Inshin]

We do not wallow in thoughts, or get tangled in them, but just let them drift through.

Hi Jundo,

Guo Gu has a completely different view on this. Since Shikantaza derives from Silent Illumination, I wonder what your thoughts are on the following excerpt starting at minute 56.

https://youtu.be/lKfoTkHAvO8

Gassho
Sat