Emptiness

[Mushin]

Re: Emptiness

Also, you say, 'If you find your intellectualizing isn't getting you anywhere...'

Where is it supposed to get you? I ask this sincerely and not in a 'trying to be a clever Zen guy' sort of way. I'm not trying to play 'gotcha', I simply want to know where you think your zazen practice is taking you.

IMHO, IANAT.

Chet

By intellectualization "not getting you anywhere" I mean that sometimes (as it has for me in the past) too much talking and not enough sitting just increases the amount of talking that you do, and you may find youself "talking in circles" or generating more questions for yourself than answers. But, in my experience, if you just "shut up and sit" alot of the answers come and you find that alot of the talking was unnecessary in the first place.

On the other hand, talking may be necessary because sometimes you hit snags along the way in zazen. Also, since this particular group is a Soto Zen group, discussion may be necessary with things like "cosmic planes" etc... come up. So, if someone has that sort of issue, maybe talking about the Soto method, and then going back for more zazen (i.e., pairing both) would be the best solution.

Gassho,

Todd.

[will]

Re: Emptiness

Yes. Zazen is important.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Re: Emptiness

By intellectualization "not getting you anywhere" I mean that sometimes (as it has for me in the past) too much talking and not enough sitting just increases the amount of talking that you do, and you may find youself "talking in circles" or generating more questions for yourself than answers. But, in my experience, if you just "shut up and sit" alot of the answers come and you find that alot of the talking was unnecessary in the first place.

On the other hand, talking may be necessary because sometimes you hit snags along the way in zazen. Also, since this particular group is a Soto Zen group, discussion may be necessary with things like "cosmic planes" etc... come up. So, if someone has that sort of issue, maybe talking about the Soto method, and then going back for more zazen (i.e., pairing both) would be the best solution.

Gassho,

Todd.

I think that is a nice description. The sitting is the truly indispensable part. The teaching and discussion guides the sitting.

And often some crystal clear answers come, some mundane some truly mind blowing. Some of those answers we can know intellectually as knowledge, some we can just experience like the coolness of the breeze on our own cheek.

Or often questions drop away, turn out not be have been so pressing,, and we can just let them be. Leave it be.

Or questions turn out to have been imagined questions all along, completely creatures of our own mind's "is a circle just a round square?" making.

Same difference, and we find that a lot of the talking was unnecessary in the first place.

[Tb]

Re: Emptiness

Hi.

"Intellectualization" is like a "finger pointing at the moon".
but still important.
And books(/words) can be used as firewood when needed.

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Dojin]

Re: Emptiness

i Know it took me a lot of time to answer and i didnt read all of the posts.
but i think emptiness is anything but empty.
it is an amazing feeling to drop everything, cast it off and just be.
as depressing as it might sound but to be empty of everything is anything but...
i cant find the words to explain what i mean and i dont think i have to since most of you probably feel and experience it by themselves.
the only way to really understand it is to do it and taste it, it is just liberating in a sense. to have nothing to be nothing and everything.

when nothing matters everything is divine.


Gassho, Dojin.

[Taigu]

Re: Emptiness

Just for my dharma friend Fugen: the finger pointing the moon is the moon itself! There is nothing in this world but the bright bold moon. When you eyes, and breath and body are moon-like, then everything becomes one moon.The old and quite boring difference between finger and moon can be dropped. Dropping this, you are dropping body and mind. This is clearly explained by Dogen in Bussho, I think he refers to Nagarjuna and to a poem: My body taking the roundness oÆ' the moon.... the real Dharma has no set form...

respectfully


Taigu