Obsessive trains of thoughts

[Kaitan]

Dear Sanga,

Recently a strong thought became like an obsession, while doing zazen it doesn't bother me so much, but the rest of the day it brings trains of thought and all kinds of scenarios that the mind loves to play around with. I try to pay more attention to my body more often and observe whenever these thoughts arise something in the body is following the same pattern. Probably it's a waste of time/energy to figure out what's going on. And I also think that making a big deal about it and trying to push it away just feeds more the obsession. What happens is that it is disturbing and brings frustration (suffering), fortunately is just a couple of times during the day and doesn't last long. It isn't a "new" kind of discomfort, but I think I'm more sensitive to it than before due to the practice.

Would like to know your thoughts on this and how you deal with these situations

Gassho

ST

Bernal

[Tai Shi]

Dear Sanga,

Recently a strong thought became like an obsession, while doing zazen it doesn't bother me so much, but the rest of the day it brings trains of thought and all kinds of scenarios that the mind loves to play around with. I try to pay more attention to my body more often and observe whenever these thoughts arise something in the body is following the same pattern. Probably it's a waste of time/energy to figure out what's going on. And I also think that making a big deal about it and trying to push it away just feeds more the obsession. What happens is that it is disturbing and brings frustration (suffering), fortunately is just a couple of times during the day and doesn't last long. It isn't a "new" kind of discomfort, but I think I'm more sensitive to it than before due to the practice.

Would like to know your thoughts on this and how you deal with these situations

Gassho

ST

Bernal

I believe that much easier to think thoughts arise out of something physical and then not make believe. Cognitive
Behavioral Therapy indicates that behavioral arises out of our thinking. In my own case, thinking gives rise to the ideas leading me to behaviors I can trace back to my thinking. I am not bound by my history rather how I deal logical. Reasoning lets me think about the consequences of my actions before those actions. Pain is physical not made up. Arthritis pain cannot heal nor be explained away. If one’s thinking does not have consciousness then it is simply daydreaming or made up thoughts and feelings that have no basis for reality. My thinking is definitely my pain which does have some kind of reality but can be dealt with in the same manner as stories. Stories allow me to make sense of the situation in which I find myself. Do make rational decisions and choices based on my experience and my stories out of my experience. Don’t be afraid to write down the actions that lead to your life and your future in life. I have had to rewrite much of my life into positive things and have been able to find meaning in life. We at Treeleah provide places for Haiku and other things like long or short poems or books we have read that influenced our lives and a whole section of Treeleaf Arts, all Arts including photography and visual art. There one finds a great place for self expression and exploration. To write extemporaneous stories and revise as we go is the greatest strength of our software for each thread or train of thought. Explore meaningful stories and find your way in poem or prose.
Gassho
Tai Shi
Jundo please let me say that I seldom comment about myself and others so please let others benefit.
sat/ lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Jundo]

Hi Bernal,

This is perhaps more of a psychological issue than just something that Zen practice has the answer to, so I would explore whether you need to talk to a professional a little, to see what is going on. It is possible that Zen practice ... or just other circumstances unrelated to Zen practice, caused something to "bubble up" and make you a bit obsessive now. I will tell you that, also having lived in China for a long period, and other places, that that alone can be a "stress" and pressure cooker that we may not always be aware of.

Zen would tell you not to "buy into" and believe every thought in the "shit storm" of the mind. Some thoughts may be good and useful, but it sounds like much of what you are experiencing is just extra, your thinking too much, making problems where there are not so many, etc. You need to discern better which are the "good and useful" thoughts and which are just the mind messing around. Keep the former, don't wallow in the latter. Don't believe every single thought your mind tells you, and only what is useful ... and develop the skills to tell one kind from the other.

Breathe, watch the show without fully buying into the show, and trust that "this too shall pass."

After that, Tai Shi offered some EXCELLENT and wise suggestions. Thank you, TS.

Other folks here who suffer such events will certainly have additional advice.

Oh, and get on the Zafu if your mind lets you, and let the though go by like a train you do not board ... be in the quiet place between the passing trains.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Kaitan]

Hi Bernal,

This is perhaps more of a psychological issue than just something that Zen practice has the answer to, so I would explore whether you need to talk to a professional a little, to see what is going on. It is possible that Zen practice ... or just other circumstances unrelated to Zen practice, caused something to "bubble up" and make you a bit obsessive now. I will tell you that, also having lived in China for a long period, and other places, that that alone can be a "stress" and pressure cooker that we may not always be aware of.

Zen would tell you not to "buy into" and believe every thought in the "shit storm" of the mind. Some thoughts may be good and useful, but it sounds like much of what you are experiencing is just extra, your thinking too much, making problems where there are not so many, etc. You need to discern better which are the "good and useful" thoughts and which are just the mind messing around. Keep the former, don't wallow in the latter. Don't believe every single thought your mind tells you, and only what is useful ... and develop the skills to tell one kind from the other.

Breathe, watch the show without fully buying into the show, and trust that "this too shall pass."

After that, Tai Shi offered some EXCELLENT and wise suggestions. Thank you, TS.

Other folks here who suffer such events will certainly have additional advice.

Oh, and get on the Zafu if your mind lets you, and let the though go by like a train you do not board ... be in the quiet place between the passing trains.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

Yes, I considered to talk to a professional about this, is just that I've never gone to one and it's tricky to know where to go given all the approaches. Also I just arrived to china a few months ago and it stirs up everything around me. Sometimes I get why Zen comes from China because it's such a contradictory culture and any westerner feels overwhelmed and completely confused. I would have ran away from this place if it wasn't because of zazen.

Thank you, Jundo ❤️

Gassho ST

Bernal

[Kaitan]

I believe that much easier to think thoughts arise out of something physical and then not make believe. Cognitive
Behavioral Therapy indicates that behavioral arises out of our thinking. In my own case, thinking gives rise to the ideas leading me to behaviors I can trace back to my thinking. I am not bound by my history rather how I deal logical. Reasoning lets me think about the consequences of my actions before those actions. Pain is physical not made up. Arthritis pain cannot heal nor be explained away. If one’s thinking does not have consciousness then it is simply daydreaming or made up thoughts and feelings that have no basis for reality. My thinking is definitely my pain which does have some kind of reality but can be dealt with in the same manner as stories. Stories allow me to make sense of the situation in which I find myself. Do make rational decisions and choices based on my experience and my stories out of my experience. Don’t be afraid to write down the actions that lead to your life and your future in life. I have had to rewrite much of my life into positive things and have been able to find meaning in life. We at Treeleah provide places for Haiku and other things like long or short poems or books we have read that influenced our lives and a whole section of Treeleaf Arts, all Arts including photography and visual art. There one finds a great place for self expression and exploration. To write extemporaneous stories and revise as we go is the greatest strength of our software for each thread or train of thought. Explore meaningful stories and find your way in poem or prose.
Gassho
Tai Shi
Jundo please let me say that I seldom comment about myself and others so please let others benefit.
sat/ lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

I would love to get into Haiku! In which section of the forum can I reach that? I also like to paint, it somehow releases what ever I have to express, though I haven't stepped into that recently. Reading Zen books, like Jundo's also feel revitalizing and inspiring, watching videos from other teachers and of course sitting zazen twice a day is super important for me.
I do what I can and at the same time not try to get caught up in so much drama, which seems to be the norm all around me.

Gassho ST

Bernal

[Amelia]

I will echo that if you are able to seek out a professional to speak to, might help you best.

But in the meantime, I try to treat these moments like zazen. I will notice, straighten my posture, and try to be with my breath for a bit and try to get back to "feeling" instead of "thinking".

I also suffer from intrusive thoughts.


stlah

[Kaitan]

I will echo that if you are able to seek out a professional to speak to, might help you best.

But in the meantime, I try to treat these moments like zazen. I will notice, straighten my posture, and try to be with my breath for a bit and try to get back to "feeling" instead of "thinking".

I also suffer from intrusive thoughts.


stlah

You're right, if it's subject to a begining it should end.

Gassho

St

Bernal

[Seiko]

Recently a strong thought became like an obsession, while doing zazen it doesn't bother me so much, but the rest of the day it brings trains of thought and all kinds of scenarios that the mind loves to play around with. I try to pay more attention to my body more often and observe whenever these thoughts arise something in the body is following the same pattern.

I came to zazen 40+ years ago thinking it would magically create peace for me. In fact, zazen held a magnifying glass over all the little issues I had tried to ignore. Sometimes it can be like that.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

[Kaitan]

I came to zazen 40+ years ago thinking it would magically create peace for me. In fact, zazen held a magnifying glass over all the little issues I had tried to ignore. Sometimes it can be like that.

Gasshō
Seiko
stlah

Thank you, yes, it does wide the attention that we try to numb most of the time.

Gassho

ST

Bernal

[Jundo]

Thank you, yes, it does wide the attention that we try to numb most of the time.

Gassho

ST

Bernal

I will add one or two things. An important part of this practice is Vipassana, even in Zen. I don't mean the "Vipassana" meditation as such, like in many South Indian and Insight traditions. Rather, I mean just in daily life, becoming more sensitive to all the games that the mind plays, the "mind theatre" between the ears, while learning to watch it without "buying into" (falling into and fully get caught by) what it is selling. For example, instead of just feeling angry and wallowing in anger, we get better at noticing "Oh, I am feeling anger now, this is just a temporary state of my mind's angry theatre act, it will soon pass and the next act will come." It makes a big difference, and we just "ride it out," patiently wait for the storm to pass. You can do that even with the obsessive trains ... just let the trains pass on by. Most people believe what they feel (we all fall into that trap lots), but this lets us step back and just wait like we are watching a bad movie. It is not a practice for during Zazen (in Shikantaza we just sit, not trying to notice anything), but generally in life.

Also, I want to say a bit more about living in a foreign country long term. Have you done it before? It can be incredibly stressful at times, and can trigger times like this, especially early on and if it is (like China or Japan) a country very different from one's own culture. I remember days of love with the country, followed by incredible frustration, some home-sickness, then joy and euphoria, even paranoia that "people were talking about me" when I could not understand what they were saying (when I finally did learn the language, I realized that almost never was somebody talking about me. ) It can cause confusion from the stress, especially living in a place as crazy chaotic as Shanghai!

Just realize that it is incredibly common and, with time, settles down into a more balanced experience as the place (for most folks) starts to feel more like home. What I used to do when I was a student in Beijing was go once a day to a western hotel coffee shop, read the English language press, eat an American style donut, talk to my English speaking friends ... pretending I was "back home" for an hour ... before heading back out to the adventure of the rest of the day.

Here's me in Hong Kong, I think, while a student in Beijing about '85, a photo I recently found ... I know of what I speak.

(that's me and my now wife, Mina, at Yungang in Xianxi. If you ask me, she is the really patient Buddha in the picture! )

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

tsuku0.jpgtsuku2.jpg

[Kaitan]

I will add one or two things. An important part of this practice is Vipassana, even in Zen. I don't mean the "Vipassana" meditation as such, like in many South Indian and Insight traditions. Rather, I mean just in daily life, becoming more sensitive to all the games that the mind plays, the "mind theatre" between the ears, while learning to watch it without "buying into" (falling into and fully get caught by) what it is selling. For example, instead of just feeling angry and wallowing in anger, we get better at noticing "Oh, I am feeling anger now, this is just a temporary state of my mind's angry theatre act, it will soon pass and the next act will come." It makes a big difference, and we just "ride it out," patiently wait for the storm to pass. You can do that even with the obsessive trains ... just let the trains pass on by. Most people believe what they feel (we all fall into that trap lots), but this lets us step back and just wait like we are watching a bad movie. It is not a practice for during Zazen (in Shikantaza we just sit, not trying to notice anything), but generally in life.

Also, I want to say a bit more about living in a foreign country long term. Have you done it before? It can be incredibly stressful at times, and can trigger times like this, especially early on and if it is (like China or Japan) a country very different from one's own culture. I remember days of love with the country, followed by incredible frustration, some home-sickness, then joy and euphoria, even paranoia that "people were talking about me" when I could not understand what they were saying (when I finally did learn the language, I realized that almost never was somebody talking about me. ) It can cause confusion from the stress, especially living in a place as crazy chaotic as Shanghai!

Just realize that it is incredibly common and, with time, settles down into a more balanced experience as the place (for most folks) starts to feel more like home. What I used to do when I was a student in Beijing was go once a day to a western hotel coffee shop, read the English language press, eat an American style donut, talk to my English speaking friends ... pretending I was "back home" for an hour ... before heading back out to the adventure of the rest of the day.

Here's me in Hong Kong, I think, while a student in Beijing about '85, a photo I recently found ... I know of what I speak.

(that's me and my now wife, Mina, at Yungang in Xianxi. If you ask me, she is the really patient Buddha in the picture! )

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

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Lovely pictures, Jundo! Yeah, I think slowly, but surely more details from very OBVIOUS things happening around with all kinds of stories bubble up. I get entangled quite easily and it gets frustrating to get washed away easily in the moment.
About living in other countries, yes... I've lived in the Netherlands, Germany, Sweden and Mexico city (not my hometown). I'm quite aware that at the beginning there's an adaptation process, but here is on another level (not to mention they were still on heavy COVID restrictions, which added unnecessary drama). As you mentioned, it's a rollercoaster of experiences here in China.

Gassho
St

Bernal

[Chikyou]

Dear Sanga,

Recently a strong thought became like an obsession, while doing zazen it doesn't bother me so much, but the rest of the day it brings trains of thought and all kinds of scenarios that the mind loves to play around with. I try to pay more attention to my body more often and observe whenever these thoughts arise something in the body is following the same pattern. Probably it's a waste of time/energy to figure out what's going on. And I also think that making a big deal about it and trying to push it away just feeds more the obsession. What happens is that it is disturbing and brings frustration (suffering), fortunately is just a couple of times during the day and doesn't last long. It isn't a "new" kind of discomfort, but I think I'm more sensitive to it than before due to the practice.

Would like to know your thoughts on this and how you deal with these situations

Gassho

ST

Bernal

One trick I've found really helpful for intrusive thoughts is to just label them. I say to myself "that's an intrusive thought!" and then move on. Doing this allows me to recognize/reinforce that the thought isn't important and isn't to be taken seriously.

A while back I stumbled across this video on Tiktok that really put intrusive thoughts in perspective for me. It's silly (this creator is a comedian after all) but it really does a good job of highlighting the utter absurdity of some of the stuff our brains come up with. Silly intrusive thoughts TikTok

Sorry for running long.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Jundo]

One trick I've found really helpful for intrusive thoughts is to just label them. I say to myself "that's an intrusive thought!" and then move on. Doing this allows me to recognize/reinforce that the thought isn't important and isn't to be taken seriously.

That is a Vipassana way too. Exactly. Very good.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Kaitan]

One trick I've found really helpful for intrusive thoughts is to just label them. I say to myself "that's an intrusive thought!" and then move on. Doing this allows me to recognize/reinforce that the thought isn't important and isn't to be taken seriously.

A while back I stumbled across this video on Tiktok that really put intrusive thoughts in perspective for me. It's silly (this creator is a comedian after all) but it really does a good job of highlighting the utter absurdity of some of the stuff our brains come up with. Silly intrusive thoughts TikTok

Sorry for running long.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

That sounds super helpful, thank you

Gassho

ST

Bernal