Something that just came up

[will]

I think it's important that we don't try to "use" Zen practice.

W

[Jundo]

Re: Something that just came up

You been eatin' the funky mushrooms today, Will?

[will]

Re: Something that just came up

Nope. But I'm sure you know what I'm talking about.

Gassho

[Jundo]

Re: Something that just came up

Actually, it is a true insight. Yes, Zazen is useless (once so said Sawaki Roshi)

[Tb]

Re: Something that just came up

Hi.

Nothing is useless.

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Tobiishi]

Re: Something that just came up

(if) zazen = nothing (and) nothing = useless (then) zazen = useless...

I knew 9th grade geometric proofs would come in handy someday in life... or is it a theorem? Quick, somebody prove it wrong!

[will]

Re: Something that just came up

What I meant by that post is:

Our sneaky mind might try to use Zen to achieve something ie. get rid of this or that. Become a better person, relax, maybe help us do better on a math exam. But as soon as we start trying to use Zen for our own purposes we miss the point and Zazen is lost. You can't "use" Zen. That's the point. It's just this life. It's not a "thing".

Gassho

[Jundo]

Re: Something that just came up

Yes, in that way Zazen's uses are endless.

[Jinho]

Re: Something that just came up

What I meant by that post is:

Our sneaky mind might try to use Zen to achieve something ie. get rid of this or that. Become a better person, relax, maybe help us do better on a math exam. But as soon as we start trying to use Zen for our own purposes we miss the point and Zazen is lost. You can't "use" Zen. That's the point. It's just this life. It's not a "thing".

Gassho

Actually you can use zazen to achieve something. It is called "bompu zen" (ordinary zen) and that is when people sit zazen to be more calm, centered, peaceful, etc. This is a very good thing for many people, very beneficial in our lives. This effect often happens (or doesn't) whether we "try" for it or not. If I make the action of zazen, then the action is made. But for me it is more accurate to say the zazen does me. And more to the point, Reality does me. Or it "does" everything together. But zazen is very definitely an action, in my experience. But then I have never experienced inaction (I am not dead yet). But I think maybe sitting with a conscious goal (I want to be more calm) can get in the way of the experience because one is not sitting "as I am, at this moment". This issue is seen in the superficially contradictory writings by rinzai teachers admonishing their students to drop their "aspiration for enlightenment" while sitting (with the koan), because, I think, aspiration is something about the future, future understanding, future experience, and so is counterproductive in experiencing the enlightenment in THIS moment. There is always Dogen's "to be enlightened by all things".

gassho,
rowan
who just moved her computer to a more convenient location - Be Afraid, Be Very Afraid.... (well, maybe only Jundo needs to be afraid since he has to read all the postings)

[disastermouse]

Re: Something that just came up

What I meant by that post is:

Our sneaky mind might try to use Zen to achieve something ie. get rid of this or that. Become a better person, relax, maybe help us do better on a math exam. But as soon as we start trying to use Zen for our own purposes we miss the point and Zazen is lost. You can't "use" Zen. That's the point. It's just this life. It's not a "thing".

Gassho

You may be interested in the book, "Ending the Pursuit of Happiness" by Barry Magid.