The flip side of "internet zen"

[Koushi]

The thing with young people is they seem to like their own sources of information, I'm not sure they'd want to sit in an online zendo with a bunch of middle-aged people like us

Give us young people some credit, we’re more accepting of the digital world we grew up in than most think. r/zen however, is such a lovely place in that they quickly run people out of Reddit and into our welcoming doors.

Write them off too quickly and we might just lose some membership.

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH

[Amelia]

Yeah, you never know. I joined Treeleaf when I was 21.

Gassho
Sat, lah

[Jundo]

r/zen + Q-Anon = .... R-Azen?

I am just saddened when I see places that give misinformation to newcomers about Zen Practice, especially Soto Practice.

In my younger days, I used to be more crusading about it. There was once, long ago, an infamous place called "E-Sangha" (which morphed into a current site, called "Dharma Wheel," which is sometimes almost as bad) which was dominated by various western converts to Tibetan and some other "not-Zen" flavors of Buddhism. It is said that E-Sangha was the largest English language forum on Buddhism from 2004 to 2009 (https://www.dhammawiki.com/index.php/E-Sangha).

The worst aspect was, like at r/zen, when newcomers would come seeking basic information on Soto Zen in E-Sangha's "Soto Zen Section," the Tibetans would all run in (they still do at Dharma Wheel) to offer misstatements and bad information, and try to get the newcomers to come instead to Tibetan Buddhism and such. It was very unfortunate. At the same time, the Tibetans et.al. banned me, the late and respected Rev. Nonin Chowaney of the Katagiri Lineage, and other actual Soto Zen priests and practitioners from the "Soto Zen Section" when we sought to give accurate information about Soto Zen.

If anyone wants to dive into very ancient history on how bad it was, you can read Rev. Nonin's descriptions here. Nonin famously wrote:

https://web.archive.org/web/20110815195915/http://esangha.110mb.com/index.php?p=1_2

THIS IS BUDDHISM, I kept asking myself? This is a Buddhist Web Forum? These administrators are supposedly Buddhist practitioners? There is a long tradition of open debate in Buddhism. What happened to that? I can't recall reading that Shakyamuni Buddha ever told anyone to shut up in an open forum or that specific opinions or points of view were not allowed to be expressed. In open forums, my Master, a Soto Zen Priest and Master, let everyone speak who wanted to speak, even if they were criticizing him. At all the monasteries and temples I practiced at in both the United States and Japan, open inquiry, questioning, discussion, and coming to your own conclusions were always encouraged, not discouraged.

MY BANNING FROM E-SANGHA came about as a result of a statement that I made in a Zen Forum discussion thread about the nature of Shakyamuni Buddha in the Zen tradition. I originally said that Shakyamuni was a human being who woke up. Later in the discussion, I said, along with much else, that because he remained a human after he woke up, Shakyamuni was afflicted by the same things that all human beings are afflicted by.

At this point the most notorious E-sangha administrator roared in on his Dharma Police motorcycle and said: "This is an unacceptable position, these are the words of Mara, Adharma, False dharma, and may not propagated [sic] here at E-Sanga [sic], in any forum. People who present themselves as Buddhist teachers here should not enunciate such falsehoods, lies and slanders." Then, he un-ceremoniously closed the thread and banned me permanently.

[ATTACH=CONFIG]8264[/ATTACH]
Rev. Nonin Chowaney

Ah, brings back memories.

In my younger days, I got all bothered by such games, and even threatened to file a complaint in Singapore (where E-Sangha was hosted) which allows filing a complaint with the internet regulators there for a web-site which engages in criticizing other religious groups. I did not, but I threatened the site owner with doing so. The good news is that it led our long time member, KvonNJ, over here to Treeleaf, way back in 2010 ... and he has been here since.

In more recent times, my priests and friends here have persuaded me not to go charging into every injustice I see like the Zen Don Quixote dueling with windmills ... so I just walk on by more.

One must be more "Zen" about Zen bashing websites and such.

However, I still step into it from time to time, fighting injustice now and then, tilting at windmills. It is just who I am.

tsuku.jpg

Gassho, J

stlah

[Tokan]

Alas, it is a big world with plenty of space both in reality and digitally, for all opinions to be aired, however erroneously formed. I didn't do a deep dive but I see some info seems okay and other bits just nonsense from my point of view. I guess you'd have to become an admin to effect change there, not volunteering though!

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

[Jundo]

... I guess you'd have to become an admin to effect change there, not volunteering though!

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

I doubt that they would let you. Not unless you drink the kool-aid.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Jacob Janicek]

I'm glad I'm not the only one who's tangled with them. I noticed it's not just the one user but several and they're also the moderation team so they can freely ban or silence anyone who disagrees. There are Facebook groups and other places that have a similar racquet going on. It's amazing the lengths some will go to create an illusion of superiority.

Jacob Jay
Did some more magic ritual sitting today

[michaelw]

I'm not sure they'd want to sit in an online zendo with a bunch of middle-aged people like us,

Tokan

Ooh does that mean I get to live to 150 years old?
Not sure if that is good news or bad?

Gassho
MichaelW

sat

[Jundo]

I'm not sure they'd want to sit in an online zendo with a bunch of middle-aged people like us,

Tokan

Ooh does that mean I get to live to 150 years old?
Not sure if that is good news or bad?

Gassho
MichaelW

sat

150 is the new 120

(See my recent postings on life extension) ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13248-The-Zen-of-Technology-Scientific-Discovery%21-%28-Robots%29&p=320508&viewfull=1#post320508

Gassho, J

stlah

[Chikyou]

I ran across that group too... I didn't realize they were so infamous, I just thought they were a little odd and moved on.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Ankai]

Lol
Nothing new. In the earliest days of Treeleaf, many of us were involved in other online Buddhist communities, and particularly in the Zen and Tibetan traditions there was much more arguing and insult then there was sharing of information and ideas.
I can tell you that there were a number of us self-appointed cyber warriors back then who are probably still banned on a few sites.
Back then in the dark ages of the internet, before covid and before Zoom, when sitting together live actually just meant seeing one another's names pop up on the screen, there were absolutely ferocious debates regarding the very legitimacy and right to exist of Treeleaf at all. Back then we saw it all as an existential crisis, fighting the good fight, standing up for the future of Zen...
Not too long ago I looked back at some of those old arguments and found I was very disappointed to have participated in most of them.
Better to just sit here and practice and be our own Sangha, The Way We want to be then to concern ourselves with how others view US, whether or not they accept us, and who is or isn't a "real Buddhist."

Sat today

[Amelia]

Lol
Nothing new. In the earliest days of Treeleaf, many of us were involved in other online Buddhist communities, and particularly in the Zen and Tibetan traditions there was much more arguing and insult then there was sharing of information and ideas.
I can tell you that there were a number of us self-appointed cyber warriors back then who are probably still banned on a few sites.
Back then in the dark ages of the internet, before covid and before Zoom, when sitting together live actually just meant seeing one another's names pop up on the screen, there were absolutely ferocious debates regarding the very legitimacy and right to exist of Treeleaf at all. Back then we saw it all as an existential crisis, fighting the good fight, standing up for the future of Zen...
Not too long ago I looked back at some of those old arguments and found I was very disappointed to have participated in most of them.
Better to just sit here and practice and be our own song The Way We want to be then to concern ourselves with how others view US, whether or not they accept us, and who is or isn't a "real Buddhist."

Sat today

Gassho
Sat, lah

[Tokan]

I'm not sure they'd want to sit in an online zendo with a bunch of middle-aged people like us,

Tokan

Ooh does that mean I get to live to 150 years old?
Not sure if that is good news or bad?

Gassho
MichaelW

sat

May you live long my friend! (ps: the years have obviously been kind too!)

Gassho, Tokan

satlah

[Jacob Janicek]

I can tell you that there were a number of us self-appointed cyber warriors back then ...
Back then in the dark ages of the internet,

I've been getting dystopian scifi vibes from everything lately. This has been a fun thread.

I would argue the internet is an even darker place today, moreso than any dystopian writer could've predicted even 20 years ago, but then I'd just be another guy arguing on the internet.

Sat today

[Kaisho]

Yes I ran into r/zen and the Denizens their in too but I will say their are better subreddit for zen. Try r/zenbuddhism. While it isn't perfect you will find many more people talking about soto zen and practice. I have to take the subreddits with a grain of salt bc most of these folks are there for the philosophical aspect of buddhism. This isn't a problem per se but it makes it hard to have a discussion about the practice side. This happens in discord public servers too.

Either way I am grateful to have my internet practice community here at Treeleaf.

Gassho, Kaisho
Stlah

Sent from my moto g stylus 5G using Tapatalk

[DGF]

this is the firsts time i hear about r/zen, i think iam fine to keep it that way!

and thankfull to be a treeleaf member.

gassho
diana
sat