The flip side of "internet zen"

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  • Jacob Janicek
    Member
    • Jun 2020
    • 40

    The flip side of "internet zen"

    Please excuse me in advance as this will be longer than three sentences, but I feel it's something important enough to warrant a longer post.

    Just yesterday I happened to stumble upon the subreddit r/Zen. At first, I was frighteningly disturbed and horrified at many of the things I was reading. Everything from "Dogenism" being a cult and not real Zen, to the very practice of sitting being little more than a choreographed ritual. It's even suggested in this space that Zen and Buddhism are mutually exclusive, and "Zen Buddhism" is a fabrication. If you were to base your understanding of Zen on the information in this subreddit you would be convinced that it's simply an abstract state of awareness and not an actual practice, with the exception to that being the practice of arguing over what is or isn't Zen and quoting various Tang dynasty writings. The hostility toward Zazen as a practice of sitting even culminated in a post trying to argue that the word "Zazen" really translates to "reigning awareness" and that anyone who practices sitting is wasting their time.

    Thankfully, I was able to do some further digging, it turns out that this very subreddit has a longstanding reputation of itself being a fringe cult, claiming to represent "true zen" in it's pure pre-Dogen uncorrupted form but being little more than the collective ramblings of a very literate but mentally ill user named u/ewk. The irony being that this virtual space is itself what it claims the entire Soto tradition to be.

    The only reason I share this is as a cautionary tale. While the internet is a technological wonder that brings to life good things like the very Treeleaf forum I'm posting this on, it can also be harborage for many unwholesome personalities and influences who use the anonymity of the internet in an attempt to subjugate rather than liberate.

    Jacob Jay
    Sat today and it was not a waste of time.
    I'm not qualified to sign this post
  • Nengei
    Member
    • Dec 2016
    • 1696

    #2
    It is a truth of the Internet that, for virtually any topic, someone has taken it off in many weird directions, and others have followed. The divergence of ways that people's minds work is nowhere more apparent. Those whose minds work more strangely, unfortunately, can learn to be adept at using others' ignorance to take them into dark places. And as you note, even the good, safer places can find a few people who use the Internet in bad ways.

    Some of our members are well-familiar with the particular person you mentioned.

    Although I could not in any way support or align with their position, it raises a thought about how we, as individuals and as a sangha, practice. Of course, we drive practice, practice, practice home here in all that we do. Zen practice is all of our being, all of our doing, and all of life is our temple. But individually, of course, our practice can thrive, or it can suffer. Even in the best, most supportive of sanghas (even our wonderful place here among the rivers and the mountains of the Internet), I could reduce my practice to "an abstract state of awareness" that is indeed not Buddhism. It is in my hands. I could fall away from sitting, and even when sitting, I could be wasting my time. It's in my hands. Fortunately, I enjoy presence in a sangha who make it easer to make good decisions about practice.

    Please excuse my lengthy reply.

    Gassho,
    Nengei
    Sat today. LAH.
    遜道念芸 Sondō Nengei (he/him)

    Please excuse any indication that I am trying to teach anything. I am a priest in training and have no qualifications or credentials to teach Zen practice or the Dharma.

    Comment

    • Bion
      Treeleaf Unsui
      • Aug 2020
      • 4560

      #3
      We’ve all bumped into that dumpster fire that is r/Zen and the ultimate troll ewk himself. Let me just say: that place perfectly illustrates the need for a teacher and a sangha. Also, many joining in the arguments don’t understand they might be bickering for hours with a teenager. [emoji23]

      [emoji1374] Sat Today
      "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

      Comment

      • Tokan
        Treeleaf Unsui
        • Oct 2016
        • 1294

        #4
        This person can be my "difficult person" metta today!

        May we all realise and live the enlightened way too-geee-eeth-errrrr

        Gassho, Tokan

        satlah
        平道 島看 Heidou Tokan (Balanced Way Island Nurse)
        I enjoy learning from everyone, I simply hope to be a friend along the way

        Comment

        • Veronica
          Member
          • Nov 2022
          • 124

          #5
          Sounds quite unpleasant. Thankfully this group isn't like reddit. [emoji4] Reddit can be quite exhausting even on more neutral topics.

          Veronica
          Stlah

          Comment

          • Jundo
            Treeleaf Founder and Priest
            • Apr 2006
            • 40341

            #6
            Yes, this "r/zen" is a strange place. I once or twice attempted to have a reasoned and evidence backed conversation there on Soto Zen history with the notorious "u/ewk" and his friends, but ... alas ...

            It is something like the "Q-Anon" of Zen.

            Gassho, J

            stlah
            Last edited by Jundo; 03-11-2023, 10:53 AM.
            ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

            Comment

            • aprapti
              Member
              • Jun 2017
              • 889

              #7
              i did not know about r/zen until now.. i cannot say i missed a lot


              [emoji1374] aprapti


              sat

              hobo kore dojo / 歩歩是道場 / step, step, there is my place of practice

              Aprāpti (अप्राप्ति) non-attainment

              Comment

              • Jishin
                Member
                • Oct 2012
                • 4821

                #8
                It's easy to get caught up in the negativity and chaos of the internet, but it's important to remember that we ultimately have control over our own actions and opinions. We can't control what others say or do, but we can control how we respond and what we choose to engage with. By focusing our energy on what we can control, we can avoid getting dragged down by the toxicity of certain online communities and instead work towards creating a more positive and productive online experience for ourselves and others. Ultimately, it's up to us to choose what we give our attention to and how we choose to interact with others in online spaces.

                Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

                Comment

                • Bion
                  Treeleaf Unsui
                  • Aug 2020
                  • 4560

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Jishin
                  It's easy to get caught up in the negativity and chaos of the internet, but it's important to remember that we ultimately have control over our own actions and opinions. We can't control what others say or do, but we can control how we respond and what we choose to engage with. By focusing our energy on what we can control, we can avoid getting dragged down by the toxicity of certain online communities and instead work towards creating a more positive and productive online experience for ourselves and others. Ultimately, it's up to us to choose what we give our attention to and how we choose to interact with others in online spaces.

                  Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH
                  Wisdom has entered the zendo! [emoji1] [emoji1319]
                  I think it is way too common for people nowadays to simply reject personal responsibility for how we use all social media and just vilify platforms themselves, rather than our own lack of discernment when curating the content we consume. It is always a choice, even down to whether to accept our own family members on FaceBook or not, for example.. We create our own “hells”

                  [emoji1374] Sat Today
                  "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

                  Comment

                  • Kokuu
                    Treeleaf Priest
                    • Nov 2012
                    • 6844

                    #10
                    Ultimately, it's up to us to choose what we give our attention to and how we choose to interact with others in online spaces.
                    I agree with you, Jishin, but my worry around r/Zen is that Reddit tends to attract a young audience and that may be the first exposure they have to Zen and be unable to judge the veracity of the information.

                    But, we are unable to control all of the information on the internet, and can only try to provide the best possible space here for genuine Zen practice and hope that the denizens of r/Zen will also read elsewhere so they have access to better teachings.

                    Gassho
                    Kokuu
                    -sattoday-

                    Comment

                    • Tokan
                      Treeleaf Unsui
                      • Oct 2016
                      • 1294

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Kokuu
                      I agree with you, Jishin, but my worry around r/Zen is that Reddit tends to attract a young audience and that may be the first exposure they have to Zen and be unable to judge the veracity of the information.

                      But, we are unable to control all of the information on the internet, and can only try to provide the best possible space here for genuine Zen practice and hope that the denizens of r/Zen will also read elsewhere so they have access to better teachings.

                      Gassho
                      Kokuu
                      -sattoday-
                      I was telling a 15 year old patient last night, who stated enjoying and hating arguing with people in online forums, that it was wasted effort at the end of the day because there will always be one more person to argue with, so better to find people to chat on a friendly basis with. Many 'branches' of Buddhism and Zen have been consigned to the history books (or forgotten), maybe r/zen will be too, even treeleaf one day (perish the thought lol!). The thing with young people is they seem to like their own sources of information, I'm not sure they'd want to sit in an online zendo with a bunch of middle-aged people like us, though perhaps there is a new treeleaf initiative in the making - not just the 'Zen of the Future', but the 'Zen for the people who will populate that Future.'

                      Off to look up r/zen now...

                      Gassho, Tokan

                      satlah
                      平道 島看 Heidou Tokan (Balanced Way Island Nurse)
                      I enjoy learning from everyone, I simply hope to be a friend along the way

                      Comment

                      • Seiko
                        Treeleaf Unsui
                        • Jul 2020
                        • 1022

                        #12
                        Originally posted by Tokan
                        I'm not sure they'd want to sit in an online zendo with a bunch of middle-aged people like us
                        Middle aged... If I try hard, I can just about remember being that.

                        Gasshō
                        Seiko
                        stlah
                        Gandō Seiko
                        頑道清光
                        (Stubborn Way of Pure Light)

                        My street name is 'Al'.

                        Any words I write here are merely the thoughts of an apprentice priest, just my opinions, that's all.

                        Comment

                        • Seiko
                          Treeleaf Unsui
                          • Jul 2020
                          • 1022

                          #13
                          Originally posted by Jacob Janicek
                          Just yesterday I happened to stumble upon the subreddit r/Zen.
                          It's just opinions. Are there any zoologists here? Do dogs or squirrels or deer have opinions or is it just a human thing?

                          Gasshō
                          Seiko
                          stlah
                          Gandō Seiko
                          頑道清光
                          (Stubborn Way of Pure Light)

                          My street name is 'Al'.

                          Any words I write here are merely the thoughts of an apprentice priest, just my opinions, that's all.

                          Comment

                          • Kokuu
                            Treeleaf Priest
                            • Nov 2012
                            • 6844

                            #14
                            Are there any zoologists here? Do dogs or squirrels or deer have opinions or is it just a human thing?
                            Not a zoologist but I do know that my dogs make their opinions on food, walks and different people very clear! Picking and choosing is not just for humans.

                            Gassho
                            Kokuu
                            -sattoday-

                            Comment

                            • Tokan
                              Treeleaf Unsui
                              • Oct 2016
                              • 1294

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Seiko
                              Middle aged... If I try hard, I can just about remember being that.

                              Gasshō
                              Seiko
                              stlah
                              Well if that's the case, your photo belies your true age - the benefit of years of dedicated practice perhaps???

                              Gassho, Tokan

                              satlah
                              平道 島看 Heidou Tokan (Balanced Way Island Nurse)
                              I enjoy learning from everyone, I simply hope to be a friend along the way

                              Comment

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