Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

[Shugen]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

When you run after your thoughts, you are like a dog chasing a stick: every time a stick is thrown, you run after it. Instead, be like a lion who, rather than chasing after the stick, turns to face the thrower. One only throws a stick at a lion once."
- Milarepa
wild mind

[Jinho]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

he second Zen approach used in the Rinzai school is that of tricking the mind out of conscious thought and into pure awareness. This is done by giving the student an unsolvable riddle which he must solve anyway, and by placing him in a horrendous training situation. Since he cannot flee from the pain of the situation, he must flee into a pure experience of the moment. There is nowhere else to go.

HI all,

This states a common misconception about koans, that they are simply nonsense. From my experience doing koan study in the Kwan Um (Seung Sahn) tradition, each koan is very directly about a very specific "piece" of understanding. They are neither random nor illogical.

gassho,
rowan

[will]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

They are either random nor illogical.

They are "neither" random nor illogical.

I think you meant to say.


Gassho

Will

[Jinho]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

They are either random nor illogical.

They are "neither" random nor illogical.

I think you meant to say.


Gassho

Will

thanks, Will! I tried to correct it but ended up with a duplicate entry.

r

[Jundo]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

They are "neither" random nor illogical.

Same when a Soto teacher approaches a Koan, for example Master Dogen. However, it may be a "logic" all its own, or something beyond discursive or analytical reasoning.

In fact, the only real difference between the so-called "Soto" approach to Koans, and what may be found in the Kwan Um or Japanese Rinzai schools is that, in Soto, the Koans are not necessarily approached as a curriculum that must be passed (same for the Harada-Yasutani lineage, which is a mixture of Soto and Rinzai practices).

http://books.google.com/books?id=-kut6g ... &ct=result

and we do not hold on to, or focus our efforts into, or seek to pierce the Koan during Zazen (apart from the Genjo Koan, which might be thought of as the Koan right before our eyes, and which is our eyes too). In Soto, Koans are approached with a pliant Zazen mind, but off the cushion proper.

Many paths up the mountain. Anyway, what mountain?

Gassho, Jundo

[disastermouse]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

They are "neither" random nor illogical.

Same when a Soto teacher approaches a Koan, for example Master Dogen. However, it may be a "logic" all its own, or something beyond discursive or analytical reasoning.

In fact, the only real difference between the so-called "Soto" approach to Koans, and what may be found in the Kwan Um or Japanese Rinzai schools is that, in Soto, the Koans are not necessarily approached as a curriculum that must be passed (same for the Harada-Yasutani lineage, which is a mixture of Soto and Rinzai practices).

http://books.google.com/books?id=-kut6g ... &ct=result

and we do not hold on to, or focus our efforts into, or seek to pierce the Koan during Zazen (apart from the Genjo Koan, which might be thought of a the Koan right before our eyes, and which is our eyes too). In Soto, Koans are approached with a pliant Zazen mind, but off the cushion proper.

Many paths up the mountain. Anyway, what mountain?

Gassho, Jundo

And yet, the koans open gently and completely. So does the Diamond Sutra if you approach it again and again with a gentle mind.

In my experience...

Chet

[chicanobudista]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

They are "neither" random nor illogical.

They are just letters.
They are just words.
They are the most meaningful things you will read.

But.....when you want to know where the men's restroom is ........ :evil:



:mrgreen:

[chicanobudista]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

Many paths up the mountain. Anyway, what mountain?

Curly then poke his teacher's eye "There! Nyuck, Nyuck, Nyuck, Woo, Woo, woo!"
:mrgreen:

[Mountaintop Rebel]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

Vipassana is a pretty hard core, down and dirty practice. I think it's definitely closer to Zen in intent and effectiveness than are most other Mahayana schools' forms of meditation.

[will]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

and we do not hold on to, or focus our efforts into, or seek to pierce the Koan during Zazen (apart from the Genjo Koan, which might be thought of as the Koan right before our eyes, and which is our eyes too). In Soto, Koans are approached with a pliant Zazen mind, but off the cushion proper.

Sometimes Koans pop up. You might have moment where it's like "Oh, right." That doesn't necessarily happen during Zazen. Also, the same Koan might pop up numerous times, each time different.

The great thing about Koans is there's thousands of them. So, once you have an oh yeah moment doesn't really mean you understand much and usually we end up back where we started.

Clinging to understanding needs to be dropped as well. Example: I'll have some moments like the time I was walking to the store and something popped up, but really that's only one moment, and things go on. One moment you might understand all the Koans, but you still have to get on with it instead of just thinking about them. It's more like "living the Koan" instead of just understanding it.

Gassho

[will]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

Also, a Koan could be anything to do with practice and life. The Shobogenzo is one big Koan.

W

[Brock]

Re: Zen is Tough - Ven. Henepola Gunaratana

Vipassana is a pretty hard core, down and dirty practice. I think it's definitely closer to Zen in intent and effectiveness than are most other Mahayana schools' forms of meditation.

Nitpicking here, but I believe that many associate it more with Theravada. Both traditions embrace it in somewhat differing forms.

I'm not a huge fan of nitpicking. Maybe I should edit this and replace it with a Henny Youngman joke.