Intellectualizing the dharma

[Houzan]

I think I keep intellectualizing the dharma too much (ref some of my earlier posts). Flipping back and forth between several books trying to find connections across different traditions so I can integrate practices I like or “choose” which account of X to believe in. Seeing the theoretical similarities somehow makes that ‘ok’ for me, but I always end up more confused as the next book I read has a different point of view. I do believe that the core should be based in one tradition, but that you can lend some supportive practices from other traditions (different medicine for different people). Probably should follow Ajahn Chah’s advice; “don’t study, practice!” (or something like that), but keep struggling with this in my practice.. doubt, I guess. Not on whether to practice the dharma but rather on what “group” of practices is right for me.

Any perspectives, advice, sharing of own experience would be appreciated, and will hopefully help me let go of this.

Sorry for running long.

Michael
Stlah

[Nengei]

It's pretty rare for me to think about a poem in response to a question, but this poem of Master Ikkyu's is one of my favorites, and fits this question well:

Every day priests minutely
examine the Dharma
and endlessly chant
complicated sutras.
They should learn
how to read the love letters
sent by the wind and rain,
the snow and moon.

- Ikkyu (1394-1491)

I agree that practice is what we should be doing. Zen is rich with bringing in something from here, and something from there. Like you, I am good with bringing in a detail here or there from another tradition; it's all good. My own perspective is that in choosing to follow a particular spiritual path, as I have, means maybe doing things a certain way, or accepting to a degree certain things, that maybe I would not have done that way on my own. That said, I am not going to suddenly believe something different or surrender my critical thinking. In deciding, as you wrote,

... what "group" of practices is right for me

my inclination is to pick a road that most makes sense to me with regards to beliefs and demands (I have chosen Sōtō Zen Buddhism as taught in the Niwa-Nishijima-Cohen lineage here at Treeleaf), and then walk that path. That doesn't mean I believe all the same things Jundo believes, or that my way of practice matches his exactly. For years, I have had a model of the Eiffel Tower and a metal bear figure on my altar, and some other things that are meaningful to me. Who knows, someone learning about Zen might come away from seeing my altar and think that there must be a small bear statue on Zen altars. And a lava lamp.

Gassho,
Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

Please forgive any indication I am trying to teach anything. I am a priest in training, without qualifications to teach Zen Buddhism or the Dharma.

[Shinshi]

Well, I have certainly suffered from that illness in the past. My short answer is that when you find yourself all muddled: go chop wood, carry water. Or just go sit.

There are tons of writings out there about how talking about Zen is like a finger pointing at the moon, they aren't the moon itself.

I always think about the parable about the blind men and the elephant.

"A group of blind men heard that a strange animal, called an elephant, had been brought to the town, but none of them were aware of its shape and form. Out of curiosity, they said: "We must inspect and know it by touch, of which we are capable". So, they sought it out, and when they found it they groped about it. The first person, whose hand landed on the trunk, said, "This being is like a thick snake". For another one whose hand reached its ear, it seemed like a kind of fan. As for another person, whose hand was upon its leg, said, the elephant is a pillar like a tree-trunk. The blind man who placed his hand upon its side said the elephant, "is a wall". Another who felt its tail, described it as a rope. The last felt its tusk, stating the elephant is that which is hard, smooth and like a spear."

So they are all correct, but they miss the larger picture. But you can't get caught up in their perspective, you have to find your own.

My rule of thumb for readings is: take what works for you and leave the rest. You are going to have to travel on your own road, others can create sign posts, but they can't walk the road for you.

I hope that makes sense.

-sorry for using so many words.


Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Kokuu]

Hi Michael

That sounds like good advice from both Nengei and Shinshi.

I don't think you have to drop the study entirely but maybe it might be a good idea to focus on books written by Soto Zen teachers for a while, so that you can understand the tradition here without needing to compare or connect it to other forms of Buddhism or spirituality? We have a great list of books and can always advise what is helpful to read. Something like Opening the Hand of Thought talks about practice itself, and Shohaku Okumura's Living By Vow teaches our way through a study of the daily chants.

You could also pick up a copy of Jundo's own The Zen Master's Dance if you haven't already!

Apologies for running long.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Ryumon]

What Kokuu said.

But also, I’m a book guy. I’ve read dozens of dharma books. Over the decades, I’ve narrowed them down to about 15 that I reread occasionally. I find that books are good reminders of things I don’t remember in day to day practice.

You need to read the books, then drop the books.

A good idea would be to look at the Treeleaf recommended book list, and pick a few to read and reread. But, reading in other traditions is helpful to know what’s different.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?5711-SUGGESTED-BOOK-LIST-for-TREELEAF-SANGHA

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[aprapti]

for me reading and studying always made me do zazen and practising zazen made me read and study..

to wings of one bird, so to say..

aprapti


sat and read

[Will001]

I went through this too, recently. I work to keep myself from getting caught by it.

There isn't a perfect system. We are not going to find the THE answer. One of the things that makes zen so unique is that the "experience of doing" is most essential. Talking about zazen is great, reading about zazen is great, thinking about zazen is great, none of which is doing zazen.

This practice taught me that I needed to stop trying to arrive at the truth. That the imperfect would always be present and was, in fact, all of IT anyway.

Instead of trying to identify a set of practices, rituals, beliefs, etc... that seem appropriate/ complimentary, just do them for a while and see what happens.

I hope that makes sense.

🙏
Sat
-w

[Jundo]

... That doesn't mean I believe all the same things Jundo believes, or that my way of practice matches his exactly. For years, I have had a model of the Eiffel Tower and a metal bear figure on my altar, and some other things that are meaningful to me. ... [/I]

But that IS precisely my way!

Gassho, J

stlah

[Huichan]

I very much understand this feeling. Lots of good advice above but also be patient with yourself to find what's right for you.


Ross
stlah

[Onki]

There are lots of ideas and paths out there. All leading to the same place. Whatever you choose (or whatever chooses YOU) make sure that it aligns with your being, your heart. I have chosen Zen Buddhism (or maybe Zen Buddhism chose ME!) but everyone is different. This Way, this path, makes sense deep within my heart.

Gasshō,

Onki

Sat today

[Guest]

Most of what I read anymore about Zen or Buddhism is to offer inspiration for my practice. Try not to intellectualize about much anymore.

Gassho
Daiman
St


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[Jishin]

Intellectualizing the dharma

Practicing vs. intellectualizing the Dharma,
Two paths that diverge in life's grand drama.
One leads to wisdom, the other to pride,
One to true freedom, the other to side.

Intellectualizing the Dharma, we seek
To understand it with our minds so meek,
But in the end, we're left with just a thought,
While true liberation remains untaught.

Practicing the Dharma, we dive deep
Into the mystery, where true wisdom sleeps,
We let go of self and ego's hold,
And find the peace that our hearts have told.

So let us not be fooled by words so grand,
For true understanding comes from the heart's command,
Let us practice the Dharma, with sincerity,
And find true liberation, in humility.

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Houzan]

Thank you, all!

Michael
stlah

[Andrea]

Intellectualizing the dharma

What I’ve been doing recently is trying to understand the core concepts of Buddhism in a deep way by tracing them through history and different traditions. Soto Zen didn’t develop in a vacuum, and being more aware of the story of Buddhist thought from the time of the Buddha, early Indian Buddhism, the rise of the Mahayana, spread of Buddhism into China and throughout East Asia as well as Tibet has been incredibly useful for putting the different practices and traditions in context, including Zen of course.

Buddhism has always changed and been changed by the different cultures it encounters, and I think it helps to remember that in the West we are still in the very early stages of that initial “first contact”— plus for the very first time all the different practice traditions of Buddhism are in conversation with each other. I find knowing where these traditions came from help clarify where they differ and why, and then I can make more informed and philosophically consistent choices about what to incorporate into my practice.

I think a lot about this stuff because I’m trying to adapt my practice to accommodate my ADHD (being a serious Dharma practitioner with attention regulation problems is not for the faint of heart!) Trying to follow any tradition “off the shelf” as it were is incredibly frustrating as a neurodivergent person, so I’m having to get a bit creative- hence all the study. You have to know the rules in order to “break” them!

Sorry to run long.
Gassho
Andrea
SaT