Suchness

[Zenkon]

The concept of "suchness" or tathta is loosely defined as "the nature of reality before subject-object distinctions." For example, when I look at a tree, my mind quickly labels the perception as "tree", and distinguishes that tree from other trees, and also quickly applies all my "stories" about tree - i.e. they provide nice shade, they drop darned leaves, they have pretty foliage, they harbor unpleasant bugs, etc. "Suchness", if I understand it correctly, refers to perceiving the tree WITHOUT applying name labels, subject-object descriptions or stories. Just "being with the perception". This seems very similar to the way I attempt to experience reality during zazen. Am I correct that zazen is experiencing suchness?

Gassho

Zenkon

sat/lah

[Guest]

Zenkon,

In my practice of zazen, I would say that zazen is not experiencing it as "suchness," or being "with" the experience, but rather just suchness itself. Or, being just how things are in this moment without any added commentary. Just this moment as it is in its entirety. Nothing added, nothing taken away. I think this is what you are saying, and I would agree with you that this is the practice of zazen. It is funny to think that zazen is really just the wisdom of doing nothing.

Gassho,

Bill
Sat Today

[Jundo]

The concept of "suchness" or tathta is loosely defined as "the nature of reality before subject-object distinctions." For example, when I look at a tree, my mind quickly labels the perception as "tree", and distinguishes that tree from other trees, and also quickly applies all my "stories" about tree - i.e. they provide nice shade, they drop darned leaves, they have pretty foliage, they harbor unpleasant bugs, etc. "Suchness", if I understand it correctly, refers to perceiving the tree WITHOUT applying name labels, subject-object descriptions or stories. Just "being with the perception". This seems very similar to the way I attempt to experience reality during zazen. Am I correct that zazen is experiencing suchness?

Hi Zenkon,

Ah, this "such" is very subtle, and something to taste and experience more than to put in words (like describing "chocolate" or "love," words only go so far ). It is not merely to see things with bare attention, or without labeling, or without adding thoughts and judgements to the experience. It is not merely being quietly aware of an experience that is happening this moment, whether in Zazen or other times.

Rather, it is experiencing any thing, person or moment as being simultaneously free of its individual thingness, personhood and momentariness (as the mind drops all separate categories and labels which cut up the world and divide), thus each and all revealed as the "Flowing Wholeness" and timelessness which we often call "Emptiness" (that is emptied of separate self-existence). There is no "tree," there is no foliage or separate things to call "bugs." There is no "now" vs. "then." All separate identity, all "subject/object" divisions of this and that, me and you, now and then ... dropped away. There is only the Flowing and Peace that is beyond all the world's frictions which arise in the clash among its countless seemingly broken pieces.

But things don't stop there, because the "Flowing Wholeness" then swings around, is known to fully embody and revitalizes each separate tree, leaf, crawling ant and instant, which is each now known as pristine and illuminated in its self-ness. Each is the "Flowing Wholeness," and has been all along! There is only the whole universe "treeing" and "folliaging" over here, and "bugging" over there, and "youing" as you the spectator ... all timelessness in each instant of the ticking clock ... all one and the same. Even a pile of dog poop (although no "dog" to poop it in Emptiness ) is now known as a pristine and shining pile of poop fit to decorate a Buddha's Crown, and likewise for "you" and that moment you step in it, and so likewise for all the separate things, people and moments of the world, both the good and bad.

Suchness.

In our Shikantaza Zazen, the thoughts ease and untangle, the emotions settle, we let all things be as they are in radical equanimity, thus the hard sense of "self" and the "self/other, subject/object" divide softens and may fully fall away ... and thus we experience such.

Sweet like chocolate, as beautiful and powerful as love.

Does that help?

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

STlah

[Tairin]

Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Zenkon]

Jundo

Thank you so very much. I think I am beginning to "get it". ( at least a little). I followed you through "... it is experiencing any thing, person or moment as being simultaneously free of its individual thingness, personhood and momentariness'' and into "Flowing Wholeness". If I understand correctly, this is where individual things somewhat dissolve. I am not a "part of" everything, as a separate entity but rather "in" everything, somewhat like a drop of water hitting the ocean. (I agree, words do not do this justice.)

I'm not sure I follow "...But things don't stop there, because the "Flowing Wholeness" then swings around, is known to fully embody and revitalizes each separate tree, leaf, crawling ant '' Am I correct in seeing here that not only am I "in" everything, like a drop of water in the ocean, but that everything is "in" me, that I embody everything.? (again, words do not do this justice).

This is kinda like trying to hold onto smoke!

Gassho

Zenkon
sat/lah

[Jundo]

I am not a "part of" everything, as a separate entity but rather "in" everything, somewhat like a drop of water hitting the ocean.

No, while all that is true, you also ARE everything and all, and all and everything is who you are, as much as you are Zenkon and also the name on your driver's license. As much as your eyes and thoughts, heart and neurons and hands are you and you are them.

Am I correct in seeing here that not only am I "in" everything, like a drop of water in the ocean, but that everything is "in" me

Yes, that is so, but also the wholeness is fully and completely each and every thing ... fully the ant and the ant fully all things ... fully the moon and the moon fully all things ... fully Zenkon and fully all things. And the ant is thoroughly the moon anting ... Zenkon is the moon Zenkoning and the ant is Zenkon anting.

And all of it is the whole universe completely antingmoonZenkoning.

But this is not an intellectual exercise. Rather, it is to be tasted and experienced thought our Zen Path.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kokuu]

Thank you so very much. I think I am beginning to "get it". ( at least a little). I followed you through "... it is experiencing any thing, person or moment as being simultaneously free of its individual thingness, personhood and momentariness'' and into "Flowing Wholeness". If I understand correctly, this is where individual things somewhat dissolve. I am not a "part of" everything, as a separate entity but rather "in" everything, somewhat like a drop of water hitting the ocean. (I agree, words do not do this justice.)

I'm not sure I follow "...But things don't stop there, because the "Flowing Wholeness" then swings around, is known to fully embody and revitalizes each separate tree, leaf, crawling ant '' Am I correct in seeing here that not only am I "in" everything, like a drop of water in the ocean, but that everything is "in" me, that I embody everything.? (again, words do not do this justice).

Hi Zenkon

There is a koan I like on this subject in the Blue Cliff Record (case 45):

A monk asked Joshu, The myriad things return to the one. Where does the one return to?
Joshu replied, Once when I lived in the province of Sei, I made a cloth shirt for myself. It weighed seven pounds.

Joshu is reminding us that we do not stop when we have realised that flowing wholeness but the flowing wholeness expresses itself as each individual thing, such as the cloth shirt he made.

This is why 'Form is no other than Emptiness' is only half of the equation. Without 'Emptiness is no other than Form' we get stuck in the wholeness without seeing it shine throughout the thousand things (i.e. everything in the world).

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Guest]

Thank you Kokuu,

That is a great koan to elucidate this. I think that case 19 in the Mumonkan highlights this as well.

Joshu once asked Nansen, "What is Way?" nansen answered, "Ordinary mind is the Way." "Then should we direct ourselves toward it or not?" asked Joshu. "If you try to direct yourself toward it, you go away from it," answered Nansen. Joshu continued, "If we do not try, how can we know that it is the Way?" Nansen replied, "The Way does not belong to knowing or to not-knowing. Knowing is illusion; not-knowing is blankness. If you really attain to the Way of no-coubt, it is like the great void, so vast and boundless. How, then, can there be right and wrong in the Tao?" At these words, Joshu was suddenly enlightened.

Mumon's poem is beautiful to highlight this:

Hundreds of flowers in spring, the moon in autumn, Cool breeze in summer, and snow in winter; If there is no vain cloud in your mind, for you it is a good season

I tend to think of it as each moment to moment direct experience is "it" or just like this (suchness). Some watermelons are round, some are oblong, but to know a watermelon, take a knife and cut a piece and bite in to it, in that moment everything is just as it is, the suchness of having attained watermelon.
Gassho,
Bill
Sat Today

[Kokuu]

Mumon's poem is beautiful to highlight this:
Hundreds of flowers in spring, the moon in autumn, Cool breeze in summer, and snow in winter; If there is no vain cloud in your mind, for you it is a good season

I tend to think of it as each moment to moment direct experience is "it" or just like this (suchness). Some watermelons are round, some are oblong, but to know a watermelon, take a knife and cut a piece and bite in to it, in that moment everything is just as it is, the suchness of having attained watermelon.