Dogen

[Mokuso]

From Shobogenzo - Zuimonki

Even if you have entered the buddha-dharma and renounced yourself and the world, it is wrong to mindlessly abandon what should not be abandoned. In this country, among those who are known as men of buddhadharma or of bodhi mind, there are some who do not consider how others see them and behave badly for no reason, saying that they have abandoned themselves. Or they do things like get wet while walking in the rain, believing that they have become free from attachment to the world. They are completely worthless both internally and externally. Despite this, people in the world often consider themselves respected and free from attachment to the ordinary world.

[Jundo]

From Shobogenzo - Zuimonki

Even if you have entered the buddha-dharma and renounced yourself and the world, it is wrong to mindlessly abandon what should not be abandoned. In this country, among those who are known as men of buddhadharma or of bodhi mind, there are some who do not consider how others see them and behave badly for no reason, saying that they have abandoned themselves. Or they do things like get wet while walking in the rain, believing that they have become free from attachment to the world. They are completely worthless both internally and externally. Despite this, people in the world often consider themselves respected and free from attachment to the ordinary world.

What does it mean to you, Mokuso?

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Mokuso]

I interpret this in the following way: in order to devote oneself to the Buddha, dharma and sangha one should not abandon other things in life that give and take love. Examples family, friends and leisure activities. Nor should one think that they are better than any other person who is a Buddhist or not a Buddhist. No one is worth more than anyone else. No one is better than anyone else. Everyone is good at something. Everyone has something good.

Gassho

[bayamo]

I, for one, think it can't all be sit and study, especially if you're not monastic or "full fledged" Buddhist. I sit (just sit) every day and read up on Buddhist philosophy (for lack of a better word) two, three times a week. I take what fits into my life. But I sure enjoy watching sports and having beers, listening to music, spending time with my family (especially my 1yo granddaughter), and I'd never give that up to just sit and watch paint dry.
#sattoday

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[Tokan]

From Shobogenzo - Zuimonki

Even if you have entered the buddha-dharma and renounced yourself and the world, it is wrong to mindlessly abandon what should not be abandoned. In this country, among those who are known as men of buddhadharma or of bodhi mind, there are some who do not consider how others see them and behave badly for no reason, saying that they have abandoned themselves. Or they do things like get wet while walking in the rain, believing that they have become free from attachment to the world. They are completely worthless both internally and externally. Despite this, people in the world often consider themselves respected and free from attachment to the ordinary world.

Clutching at abandonment they entangle themselves deeper in delusion and ignorance.
Believing they have dropped body and mind they drive a nail through their own foreheads!

Gassho, Tokan (satlah)

[Tai Do]

I, for one, think it can't all be sit and study, especially if you're not monastic or "full fledged" Buddhist. I sit (just sit) every day and read up on Buddhist philosophy (for lack of a better word) two, three times a week. I take what fits into my life. But I sure enjoy watching sports and having beers, listening to music, spending time with my family (especially my 1yo granddaughter), and I'd never give that up to just sit and watch paint dry.
#sattoday

Sent from my SM-A325M using Tapatalk

I think Dogen would agree with this, Bayamo. I surely can relate.
Gassho,
Mateus
Sat LAH

[Mokuso]

exactly

[Jundo]

From Shobogenzo - Zuimonki

Even if you have entered the buddha-dharma and renounced yourself and the world, it is wrong to mindlessly abandon what should not be abandoned. In this country, among those who are known as men of buddhadharma or of bodhi mind, there are some who do not consider how others see them and behave badly for no reason, saying that they have abandoned themselves. Or they do things like get wet while walking in the rain, believing that they have become free from attachment to the world. They are completely worthless both internally and externally. Despite this, people in the world often consider themselves respected and free from attachment to the ordinary world.

I interpret this in the following way: in order to devote oneself to the Buddha, dharma and sangha one should not abandon other things in life that give and take love. Examples family, friends and leisure activities.

Hi Mokuso,

This is from Shobogenzo-Zuimonki 2-10. I am sorry to say this, but I think Master Dogen's words and his meaning might not be quite what you think. Hmmm. Although at some times in his teaching career, Master Dogen was very open to the ability of folks out in the world to practice while not renouncing the world, at other times he was very insistent that one must renounce the world and all worldly connections. Zuimonki is really from the time that Ol' Dogen, like a football coach trying to encourage his team, was speaking to his monks, living isolated in a monastery far removed from their family connections, and reminding them that leaving the world is vitally important. It really depends when and who Dogen was speaking to, and who he wished to encourage (if lay people at home, his message could be very different and very supportive of lay practice; if speaking to monks, he would say that leaving family is most important.)

So, for example, the translation actually says:

[Okumura] Do not expect to be respected by others unless you have true inner virtue. Since people in this country are ignorant of such virtue and praise others highly based only on their outward appearances ... To halfheartedly pretend to have abandoned your body and parted from the world is only a matter of outward appearance. Such is not a sincere attitude. One who appears to be an ordinary person of the world, and goes on harmonizing his inner mind is a person of true bodhi-mind. Therefore, an Ancient said, “Empty inside, following along outside.”

... Even though you have entered into the buddha-dharma and have abandoned yourself and the world, it is wrong to thoughtlessly abandon that which should not be abandoned. In this country, among those who are famous as men of the buddhadharma or of bodhi-mind, there are some who do not consider how others see them and behave badly without any reason, saying they have abandoned the self. Or they do such things as becoming drenched while walking in the rain, and think they have become free of attachment to the world. They are entirely useless both inwardly and outwardly. Nevertheless, people in the world often consider them respectable and free from attachment to the ordinary world. In their midst, if one maintains the precepts of the Buddha, keeps the regulations, practices for oneself, and instructs others in following the Buddha’s teachings, people think that he clings to fame and profit and ignore him. Yet for us that is the way to follow the Buddha’s teaching and cultivate inner and outer virtue.

I think that his point is that one should not be a monk just as a performance, to get praise from viewers for looking serious (although inside one is not serious.) He says that it is better to look outwardly like an ordinary person, but to have a harmonious mind within. Don't abandon the world in a meaningless way (for example, by punishing the body just for show and to get followers). On the other hand, other priests say that they are "liberated inside," so they can drink, have a wild worldly life, rather than strictly following the Precepts. Best is just to keep the Precepts, and abandon attachment to fame and profit, even if outside people think you are not so serious because you don't put on a show of being a great, body punishing monk, or someone who lives wildly but claims to be liberated.

In fact, when he says, "it is wrong to thoughtlessly abandon that which should not be abandoned," he probably means to thoughtlessly abandon living strictly by the monk's Precepts, and instead, drinking, having sex, living a worldly life, etc.

I think Dogen kept the same theme in Zuimonki 5-20, where Dogen says:

[Okumura] ... Nowadays, some people seem to have abandoned the world and left their homes. Nevertheless, when examining their actions, they still haven’t truly left home, or renounced the world. As a monk who has left home, first you must depart from your ego as well as from [desire for] fame and profit. Unless you become free from these things, despite practicing the Way urgently as though extinguishing a fire enveloping your head, or devoting yourself to practice as diligently as the Buddha who stood on tiptoe (for seven days [during his early ascetic period]), it will amount to nothing but meaningless trouble, having nothing to do with emancipation. Even in the great Song China, there are people who have departed from attachment [to their family] which is hard to let go of, abandoned worldly wealth which is difficult to give up, joined communities of practitioners, and visited various monasteries. Some of them, however, have been spending their lives in vain because they practice without understanding this key point. They neither realize the Way nor clarify the Mind. Although in the beginning they arouse bodhi-mind, become monks and follow the teachings, instead of aspiring to become buddhas or patriarchs, they only concern themselves with making it known to their patrons, supporters, and relatives about how respectable they are or how high the status of their temple is. They try to get people to revere them and make offerings to them. Furthermore, they claim that other monks are all vicious and immoral; that only they are men of bodhi-mind and good monks. They try to persuade people to believe their words. People like this are not even worth criticizing; they are like the five evil monks (at the time of the Buddha) who lacked goodness. Without exception, monks with such a frame of mind will fall into hell. Lay people who don’t know what they really are, think that they are respectable men of bodhi-mind.

There are some who are a little better than these people. Having abandoned their parents, wives, and children, and no longer coveting offerings from patrons, they join the communities of practitioners to practice the Way. However, though they feel ashamed of being idle, since they are by nature lazy, they pretend to be practicing when the abbot or the shuso is watching. However, when no one is around, they waste their time, neglecting to do what they should be doing. They are better than lay people as irresponsible as themselves, but still cannot cast away their ego, or (their desire for) fame and profit.

There are also those who are not concerned with what their teacher thinks or whether the shuso or other fellow practitioners are watching or not. They always bear in mind that practicing the Buddha-Way is not for the sake of others but only for themselves; such people desire to become buddhas or patriarchs with both body and mind. So they truly practice diligently. They really seem to be people of the Way compared with the people mentioned above. However, since they still practice trying to improve themselves, they have not become free from their ego. They want to be admired by buddhas and bodhisattvas, and desire to attain buddhahood, and complete awareness. This is because they still cannot throw away their selfish desire for fame and profit.

Up to this point, none of these people have yet advanced beyond the hundred foot pole; they remain clinging to it. Just cast body and mind into the buddha-dharma, and practice without desire either to realize the Way or to attain the dharma. Then you can be called an undefiled practitioner. ...

So, first to notice is that Dogen was always telling his monks that it is good to be a monk, and to leave behind family. His point is that leaving family is not enough if one is greedy for fame and profit, or practicing just for show when the Abbot walks by, or practicing with selfishness and goals.

Here, Dogen was very much about abandoning home, and living like a celibate monk.

However, Dogen is also about the importance of practicing while still at home, if one has seriousness within.

Thus, Dogen seems to have had two opinions on this question. It is almost as if there were two Dogens sometimes!

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

[Jundo]

I, for one, think it can't all be sit and study, especially if you're not monastic or "full fledged" Buddhist. I sit (just sit) every day and read up on Buddhist philosophy (for lack of a better word) two, three times a week. I take what fits into my life. But I sure enjoy watching sports and having beers, listening to music, spending time with my family (especially my 1yo granddaughter), and I'd never give that up to just sit and watch paint dry.
#sattoday

This is a fine path too (so long as one keeps those beers in moderation! )

You know, it is a funny thing about being a monk: People think that it is the hard or only "real" path. In fact, the Buddha never said that, but many times is quoted as saying this.

‘Household life is crowded and dusty; life gone forth is wide open. It is not easy, while living in a home, to lead the holy life utterly perfect and pure as a polished shell. Suppose I shave off my hair and beard, put on the yellow robe, and go forth from the home life into homelessness.’

Life at home is not easy ... but not impossible either. In fact, the monastery is the easier Path in many ways, said the Buddha, involving leaving behind worldly responsibilities, problems, distractions. Let those who need to be separated from distraction go there, but others can seek their practice amid all the distractions and difficulties of this ordinary world.

Dogen also ... if not always ... said that practice at home is authentic too. As he famously taught in Bendowa (a letter to lay students):

THIRTEEN:
Question: Can a layman or laywoman practice this zazen or is it only for those who have left home?

Answer: The Ancestors have said that to understand the Buddha Dharma there can be no distinction between man and woman or between high and low.

FOURTEEN:
Question: Those who leave home are free all at once from numberless obligations so for them there is no obstruction to zazen and following the Way. How can a busy layperson sincerely practise and realize the unfabricated Buddha Way?

Answer: Through their limitless compassion the Buddhas and Ancestors have flung wide the vast gates of compassion for all beings to enter realization whether humans or shining beings. We can see many examples in past and present: The emperors Daizhong and Shunzong, although busy with affairs of state practiced zazen and entered the vast Way of the Buddhas and Ancestors. Prime ministers Li and Fang were close advisers to emperors and the limbs of the nation, and they also followed the Way through zazen and entered realization of the Vast Way of the Buddhas and Ancestors. It simply depends on commitment and has nothing to do with having left home or not. Those who can clearly discern excellent from inferior will naturally have confidence in the Buddha Dharma. Those who think that worldly tasks can hinder the Buddha Dharma only think there is no Buddha Dharma in worldly things; they do not know that are no "worldly things" "in the Buddha". In the great Song dynasty a minister of state named Fengji was experienced in the Way of the Ancestors and wrote a verse to express himself:

"Between affairs of state I’ve enjoyed zazen,
seldom laying my side to a bed and sleeping;
although I have a minister’s appearance,
I am known as an elder adept across the four seas."

Official affairs left him no rest, but because he had the commitment to sincerely practice, he attained the Way. Take a look at yourself through these examples and consider the present along with the past. At this present time, in the great Song dynasty, emperors, ministers, soldiers and commoners, and men and women attend to the Way of the Ancestors. The military and scholars have a commitment to practice Zen, and many of them will eventually clarify the ground of Awareness. So this all shows that worldly tasks do not hinder the Buddha Dharma. If true Buddha Dharma spreads throughout a nation, the Buddhas and shining beings always protect that nation, and the reign is peaceful. If the reign becomes peaceful, the Buddha Dharma becomes stronger. At the time of the Buddha, even the worst criminals with harmful views gained the Way. Under the Ancestors even hunters and old woodcutters were Awakened, as others certainly will. All you have to do is to receive instruction from a true Teacher.

Gassho, J

STLah

[AnGyo]

I guess I interpret; "Or they do things like get wet while walking in the rain, believing that they have become free from attachment to the world..." , as Dogen pointing out that sometimes persons worried about outward appearance will make silly choices like choosing to get wet for the sake of appearing unattached to being dry (or whatever the case may be) when using something like a raincoat or umbrella just makes more sense. Sacrificing practicality for theatrics.

In Gassho,
AnGyo
Sat Today

[Tomás ESP]

It is almost as if there were two Dogens sometimes!

I have found this in other teachers too. For example, the teachings given by Thich Nhat Hanh to his lay followers were quite different than the ones he gave to his monastic community. If you are a lay follower, you will almost never hear about the Vinaya, the 6 realms or Yogachara philosophy, but if you are a monastic you will, multiple times (at least according to some of his Vietnamese followers). I think this is a good trait for a teacher, to adapt in accordance to the audience so that it is relevant.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

[Mokuso]

Nice to have so many wise answers. It is always nice and stimulating to discuss Dogen and try to interpret his texts to a modern point of view.

From Shobogenzo Zuimonki 1-14

“Even people in the secular world must concentrate on one thing and learn it thoroughly enough to be able to do it in front of others rather than learning many things at once, without really accomplishing any of them.
This is all the more true of buddha-dharma, which transcends the secular
the world, and has never been taught or practiced from scratch without beginning.
We are still unfamiliar with it. In addition, our capacity is poor. If we try to learn many things about this high and boundless buddha-dharma, we will not achieve a single thing. Even if we only devote ourselves to one thing, due to our inferior capacity and nature, it will be difficult to clarify the buddha-dharma thoroughly in a lifetime.”

My reflection on this: It is better to learn one thing and become really good at it, than to try to learn many things half-heartedly and not be really good at anything. If you want to learn something well, you should concentrate only on that thing. To just be present in what you do.
I interpret it as Dogen meaning; if one is to devote himself to Buddhism and Buddha-dharma, one should do it fully and live in the monastic world. But even there you will not become a full scholar. But better.
We humans will never be fully educated. But we can always get better and better.

Gassho, Mokuso

[Bion]

Nice to have so many wise answers. It is always nice and stimulating to discuss Dogen and try to interpret his texts to a modern point of view.

From Shobogenzo Zuimonki 1-14

“Even people in the secular world must concentrate on one thing and learn it thoroughly enough to be able to do it in front of others rather than learning many things at once, without really accomplishing any of them.
This is all the more true of buddha-dharma, which transcends the secular
the world, and has never been taught or practiced from scratch without beginning.
We are still unfamiliar with it. In addition, our capacity is poor. If we try to learn many things about this high and boundless buddha-dharma, we will not achieve a single thing. Even if we only devote ourselves to one thing, due to our inferior capacity and nature, it will be difficult to clarify the buddha-dharma thoroughly in a lifetime.”

My reflection on this: It is better to learn one thing and become really good at it, than to try to learn many things half-heartedly and not be really good at anything. If you want to learn something well, you should concentrate only on that thing. To just be present in what you do.
I interpret it as Dogen meaning; if one is to devote himself to Buddhism and Buddha-dharma, one should do it fully and live in the monastic world. But even there you will not become a full scholar. But better.
We humans will never be fully educated. But we can always get better and better.

Gassho, Mokuso

Okumura Roshi once said that he thinks we should do many things, but pick one main practice and stick with it. He mentioned how he made the same vow as his teacher, and his life long practice has revolved around that, writing and making translations to spread the dharma. Regarding home leaving, or ordination, master Keizan said the same: Whether physically leaving home as a monk or staying home while ordained, one should practice with the same devotion and truly pour oneself, consume oneself in that practice, basically not being superficial, negligent or lukewarm.

[emoji1374] Sat Today