Do I accept or do I endeavor?

[Jundo]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Retreats are an important part of the practice. More time, working very very hard, in which "nothing happens" ... and that makes all the difference in the world. (I am not kidding. They truly are important)

I recommend at least one retreat a year ... a week or more if you can manage, two days at least. For those who don't already know, and even for those who do ... our Treeleaf 2-Day Retreat is always available ... 24/7/365 in any lifetime!

http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... day-j.html

Watch it 4x, and it becomes an 8 day retreat! (Plus you get to hear my same talks and dumb jokes again and again and again! :shock: )

Gassho, Jundo

[Borsuk]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Don't define yourself as anything. Give up defining yourself, since yourself is not. If you say, "I am like this" or "I am like that" it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Actually, you are reborn each moment, fresh and new, but it's your ideas about who you think you are that, to a large extent, condition the rebirth.

Maybe.

Gassho,
David

[disastermouse]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Don't define yourself as anything. Give up defining yourself, since yourself is not. If you say, "I am like this" or "I am like that" it becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. Actually, you are reborn each moment, fresh and new, but it's your ideas about who you think you are that, to a large extent, condition the rebirth.

Maybe.

Gassho,
David

I'm not exactly sure how to implement your advice. I'm asking for advice about how to deal with what I've noticed as a pervasive issue, regardless of whether I define myself as having a certain issue or not.

Jundo:

Yes, I know retreats are important. Do you have any recommendations regarding neck and jaw soreness, for instance? For body aches and pains in general and the attendant headaches?

Chet

[Jundo]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Jundo:

Yes, I know retreats are important. Do you have any recommendations regarding neck and jaw soreness, for instance? For body aches and pains in general and the attendant headaches?

Chet

Hi Chet,

You mean when you are sitting Zazen, or at other times? Are you sitting with a lot of tension in your body? Holding tension and worry in the body, in the same way that many get "stiff shoulders"?

Perhaps when you are sitting, you can take a minute or two at the start to feel the tension and worry drop away from the muscle groups in your body? Feel the tension drain from your neck, your shoulders, your back, etc. Do so while following the breath for a few minutes.

See how that works and report back.

Gassho, Judno

[disastermouse]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Jundo:

I've noticed that when I hold the mudra lower in my lap, the tension goes away - as it does when I abandon the mudra and simply place my hands on my thights palm-down.

Jon:

I think you managed to wring out every neo-hippy natural medicine cliche out there. I think you missed 'cleansing', but then again you talked a lot about water. You know the the 'eight glasses of water per day' thing was just conjured up ex nihilo, right?

Homeopathy is bunk, in my opinion. TMJ is massively over-diagnosed.

I'm sorry if I seem cranky about this, but I used to buy this crap hook, line, and sinker and it really is just crap.

Chet

[disastermouse]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

I'm not flame-baiting and I don't think my language was overly harsh. Alternative medicine really messed me up back in the day.

To me, the theories behind a lot of alternative medicine require a certain amount of gullibility in order to believe. The fact that so many Buddhists in the west are ALSO into this stuff reflects poorly on Zen.

I wasn't trying to insult you, personally.

Chet

[will]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

An insult and a flame can be great learning experiences personally. However, if they start to affect things as a whole, then they probably should be stopped.

"Who the F**K do you think you are?" Is probably one of the best teachings you'll come across.

I think the story of the Zen Monk giving away his last possession to a thief, and Hakuin's "Is that so?" Can remind us that there's nothing to take personally.

Another thing that pops up is "Like rocks that grind together and polish each other through friction."

But also I think that Zazen is more about balance and Soto Zen is not really the crack of the stick on the side of the head (although I've heard differently in Japan). First I think quiet is important for stages of practice, especially for those who are tense, or have a habit towards anger. Zazen gives you more then enough to deal with.

Gassho

Will

[Aswini]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

I think the story of the Zen Monk giving away his last possession to a thief

I haven't actually read this story from a book or a sutta, but in the versions i have heard, didn't the monk say "What a silly fellow (the thief), I gave him my robes but I could have given him the moon" as in a finger pointing at the moon type of moon. Please correct me. This thought just popped into my head.

[disastermouse]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

So I'm thinking, 'Accept as much as I can while endeavoring to go to a retreat'.

Chet

[Jinho]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Well, it wouldn't be a problem, except that I'm torn. I know I need a teacher, and that means some commitment - and I really am loathe to let someone down like that. I've never done a seshin, for instance - not sure I could, really.


...

Hi,

To answer the first post, for me it is about figuring out what is the most important thing for me to do at any moment. I think maybe you are suffering with the delusion that regular (timewise) scheduled activity is GOOD, unscheduled is BAD? So much of my delusion is about pejoratives, so this is what I think of first.

also, I think maybe you are expressing that it is an either/or of acceptance/doing. For me i tis more useful to understand acceptance as when I stop beating my head against the wall of reality, then I can more clearly decide what to do (since we are always doing, there is no possibility of not doing, "not doing" is still doing).

Having a teacher is not necessarily a commitment, it can be just that you sometimes go to see someone for advice on your zen practice. I think I am of the opinion that it is important not to overlay a layer of fantasy about "teacher", "student", etc. It is just two people talking on occasion.

But please, if you wish, perhaps you could write more about your need for a teacher? What "teacher" means to you, what you hope to get out of it, what you need this teacher for? I hope the previous doesn't in any way sound as if I am suggesting you don't need a teacher, I am just wondering more about what your "needing a teacher" is about (and that your experience might help me clarify my feelings on this).

thank you for your time,
gassho,
rowan

[disastermouse]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

But please, if you wish, perhaps you could write more about your need for a teacher? What "teacher" means to you, what you hope to get out of it, what you need this teacher for? I hope the previous doesn't in any way sound as if I am suggesting you don't need a teacher, I am just wondering more about what your "needing a teacher" is about (and that your experience might help me clarify my feelings on this).

thank you for your time,
gassho,
rowan

Mostly just to keep me honest and maybe to remind me to keep waking up.

Chet

[Jinho]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Jundo:

I think you managed to wring out every neo-hippy natural medicine cliche out there. I think you missed 'cleansing', but then again you talked a lot about water. You know the the 'eight glasses of water per day' thing was just conjured up ex nihilo, right?

Homeopathy is bunk, in my opinion. TMJ is massively over-diagnosed.

I'm sorry if I seem cranky about this, but I used to buy this crap hook, line, and sinker and it really is just crap.

Chet

Dear Mouse,

Um, "neo-hippy...." and "crap" are, I think, not good language to use here. If we are trying to create a kinder world, it must begin with kind speech, which means not using pejorative language. We will all respect your personal negative experiences if you present them as such, but I believe it is important to be respectful that other persons' experiences are different. Personally, I have no knowledge of what is called "wholistic" health issues, but I happened to find that if I drank a lot of water the day before and and day of my Morris Dancing practice or performance, that it made a tremendous difference in my energy level and endurance level (morris dancing as practiced in california is VERY energetic, lots of high leaps covering a lot of ground, very different from the English morris dancing I have seen on TV). And I discovered that, for some reason, if I take my vitamins before I go to sleep, I sleep much better. I don't know why but it is so. Everyone else who has tried these vitamins say they give them energy so who knows (fyi - they are the "source of life" multi-vitamins/minerals but Nature's Plus - great stuff in my experience).

thank you for your time,
rowan

[CharlesC]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

... Personally, I have no knowledge of what is called "wholistic" health issues, but I happened to find that if I drank a lot of water the day before and and day of my Morris Dancing practice or performance, that it made a tremendous difference in my energy level and endurance level (morris dancing as practiced in california is VERY energetic, lots of high leaps covering a lot of ground, very different from the English morris dancing I have seen on TV). And I discovered that, for some reason, if I take my vitamins before I go to sleep, I sleep much better. I don't know why but it is so. Everyone else who has tried these vitamins say they give them energy so who knows (fyi - they are the "source of life" multi-vitamins/minerals but Nature's Plus - great stuff in my experience)...

From what I've observed English morris dancers spend a lot of time drinking beer so they don't need the water and vitamins...

:Charles

[disastermouse]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Jundo:

I think you managed to wring out every neo-hippy natural medicine cliche out there. I think you missed 'cleansing', but then again you talked a lot about water. You know the the 'eight glasses of water per day' thing was just conjured up ex nihilo, right?

Homeopathy is bunk, in my opinion. TMJ is massively over-diagnosed.

I'm sorry if I seem cranky about this, but I used to buy this crap hook, line, and sinker and it really is just crap.

Chet

Dear Mouse,

Um, "neo-hippy...." and "crap" are, I think, not good language to use here. If we are trying to create a kinder world, it must begin with kind speech, which means not using pejorative language. We will all respect your personal negative experiences if you present them as such, but I believe it is important to be respectful that other persons' experiences are different. Personally, I have no knowledge of what is called "wholistic" health issues, but I happened to find that if I drank a lot of water the day before and and day of my Morris Dancing practice or performance, that it made a tremendous difference in my energy level and endurance level (morris dancing as practiced in california is VERY energetic, lots of high leaps covering a lot of ground, very different from the English morris dancing I have seen on TV). And I discovered that, for some reason, if I take my vitamins before I go to sleep, I sleep much better. I don't know why but it is so. Everyone else who has tried these vitamins say they give them energy so who knows (fyi - they are the "source of life" multi-vitamins/minerals but Nature's Plus - great stuff in my experience).

thank you for your time,
rowan

Use your time for better things than lecturing. Sanctimony is egoic, and probably a greater violation of Right Speech than the words 'neo-hippy' (not strictly pejorative) and 'crap'. The precepts and the Eightfold Path are not to be used for spanking others, they are to be used to examine our own behavior. I'm sure I'll reap the karmic rewards for my behavior if it truly is more than just a little 'rough'.

Sanctimony drains the life out of whatever it touches.

IMHO, IANAT.

Chet

(Edited to add: I'm cranky today - I apologize, but I figured I'd let my original remarks stand for integrity's sake.)

[Jundo]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Let's not fight about being nice & polite to each other. :roll: