Do I accept or do I endeavor?

[disastermouse]

How do you know when you should be easier on yourself and when you need to light a fire under your ass regarding Zen?

As some may suspect, I suck at pretty much ANYTHING that requires that I be somewhere at a certain time. Even when I sat zazen everyday, I never did it at the same time. I can lift weights everyday for two weeks, but if I sign up for any sort of exercise class (Krav Maga, etc...), I just don't go. My job is pretty much the only place I show up at a certain time without at least a LITTLE bit of wiggle room about the when.

I'm thirty-four and I've misguidedly tried to fix this little issue that seems to bug others - and I've come to the conclusion that I just don't care that much myself....

The thing is, is any sort of 'organized Zen' with other people even possible with this particular character trait? Do you just endeavor to keep trying to be good at something at which you are REALLY, really bad? Don't get me wrong....if you suck at meditating, you keep doing it because - well, it's the only game in town really. Still, it's just you and the bench/cushion/chair/etc.

Hmmmrrrphh...

[Fuken]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

How do you know when you should be easier on yourself and when you need to light a fire under your ass regarding Zen?

First thing is to be kind to yourself. Sounds like a touchy feely thing I know, but due to my occupation I don't worry about that to much.

Watch your mental chatter, is it kind, compassionate, and wise?

this sounds like some pseudo psychology but when we observe our thoughts over time we can make small adjustments to improve our relation to the self/nonself thingy.

I have found that when I am kind and gentle with my "Self" I am more likely to be better equipped to serve those around me. And that when I beat myself up about something I tend to become more intolerant of others.

The thing is, is any sort of 'organized Zen' with other people even possible with this particular character trait?

I think that you are perfectly suited for this sangha, which is a form of 'organized Zen.'

Do you just endeavor to keep trying to be good at something at which you are REALLY, really bad?

I have learned that it is counter productive to think this way. I play a Japanese end blown flute without the notion of good or bad. It has been a fulfilling practice.

Don't get me wrong....if you suck at meditating, you keep doing it because - well, it's the only game in town really. Still, it's just you and the bench/cushion/chair/etc.

I can't quite grasp sucking at meditating, maybe I am just feeling lofty right now. Instead of judging your ZaZen accept it for what it is. But I sympathize with you because I have had those days where concentration and contemplation have seemed impossible. All I can say is those days will pass and come again.

Hope you find that helpful.

Gassho, "Fuken" Jordan

[Dojin]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

well i think you should try and do both... accept the things as they are and after you accept and come to terms with them you should work diligently to change what you think needs changing.

as for not caring yourself, i dont think you dont care, otherwise you wouldnt of brought this up right?

Chet i know what you mean about not finishing things and about picking something and than just drop it.
i used to do that too. so in the end i just decided if i start something i will just go with it and finish it, or i shouldnt start at all. and mostly i keep to it and sometimes i dont. but its just life thats all.

as for zen i think that as long as you just live your life and do the best you can to live it in a way not harmful to others and yourself that you already practice zen... it took me a very long time to realize that zen and zazen is not just sitting meditation...
and even after all that time of sitting i still have daysperiods when zazen is a pain in the legs and i just cant sit still... than agian sometimes its just great... its all zazen no matter what you experience or what you call it.


good luck with the journey.

Gassho, Dojin.

[Tb]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Hi.

Before you start on working on a problem you have to see what the problem is.
With that being said, you have no problem, you just think you do.
Just take it "a moment at a time".

You have to figure it out by yourself, no one is going to do it for you.
But it might help to listen in sometimes.

As with the other parts, "dont separate hot and cold", there is no "good" or "bad".
There "just is".

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[disastermouse]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Hi.

Before you start on working on a problem you have to see what the problem is.
With that being said, you have no problem, you just think you do.
Just take it "a moment at a time".

You have to figure it out by yourself, no one is going to do it for you.
But it might help to listen in sometimes.

As with the other parts, "dont separate hot and cold", there is no "good" or "bad".
There "just is".

Mtfbwy
Fugen

There is no good or bad? Yet we kill weeds and not flowers....paraphrasing Dogen here.

[Keishin]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

I think you should endeavor to accept.

[Skye]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Well, I'm in the same boat. It's not that I have commitment issues, its just that my schedule is wonky, sometimes I have insomnia, I get distracted by lots of fascinating things, etc. I would certainly like to be different, and sometimes I'm good at sticking to a schedule, then it invariably falls apart.

You have an idea of yourself as you are, and an idea of yourself as you would like to be. It seems to me Zen treats this dualism like any other, both accepting of the way things are, and striving to improve oneself at the same time, whole-heartedly. At some point I always come back to the question, "why do I have this idea of who I should be that is different than who I am or how I am acting". Sometimes it is because of expectations that others have of me (family is always a good one) and more often it is a mental roadblock that I have for some inexplicable reason put up myself. Simply acknowledging and being mindful of the true issue at hand nearly always results in a conclusion.

I'm thirty-four and I've misguidedly tried to fix this little issue that seems to bug others - and I've come to the conclusion that I just don't care that much myself...

I've come to the conclusion that I need to stop feeling bad about not having a fixed daily routine. I come from a family of morning people and I am a night person. For a long time I felt bad because I got labeled with a stigma that night people that sleep in late are "lazy". (Now of course there are many studies that show it's largely biological). One the one hand, yes sometimes I'm envious of people that have a daily schedule, as the structure no doubt helps productivity, they get more sunshine, etc. On the other hand, my friends that are like that tend to fall asleep very early and sometimes miss out on fun & interesting things that sometimes happen after 10pm.

In the end, I always make appointments that really matter on time - and that's what really matters to me.

Gassho,
Skye

[Tb]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Hi.

Before you start on working on a problem you have to see what the problem is.
With that being said, you have no problem, you just think you do.
Just take it "a moment at a time".

You have to figure it out by yourself, no one is going to do it for you.
But it might help to listen in sometimes.

As with the other parts, "dont separate hot and cold", there is no "good" or "bad".
There "just is".

Mtfbwy
Fugen

There is no good or bad? Yet we kill weeds and not flowers....paraphrasing Dogen here.

Hi.

very good example.

And though it is like this, it is plainly that flowers, while loved, fall and weeds while hated, flourish.

"Dogen, Genjokoan"

It is also in the lines of the lines of along the lines of the Hsin Hsin Ming:

"To set up what you like against what you dislike/is the disease of the mind."

The point is they're both building up to the point they want to show in the lines above, both equally important.
In the first three statements of Genjokoan, Dogen illustrates what reality is like; in the line above, he presents it more directly, “and though it is like this, it is only that flowers, while loved, fall; and weeds while hated, flourish.”
This kind of expression, is meant to convey the truth that reality, or enlightenment is not produced by words, knowledge, or even spiritual practice; reality is reality, as it is here and now.

And if you are in the bookclub here, suzuki, discusses this in the book we're going to read.

And ask yourself what is weed, and what is flower?
Is not a weed sometimes a flower and a flower a weed?

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[will]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

You can never be bad at Zen.

When you sit Zazen. You sit Zazen. Whether it is all day or 3 times a week. It's all about you. You make the rules.

There's no rule book that says one must sit so and so many times before they become "enlightened". It's your choice. Of course there are recommendations of sitting zazen, but "you" must do it. So I would say stop worrying about whether or not your Zazen is good or Bad, and just sit Zazen.

G, W

[prg5001]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

In summary:

yes, no, both, neither.

Cheers,

Paul

[Shohei]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

I think you should endeavor to accept.

Nice! Thats what I was going to write but i took too long to post (;

I know that my reluctance to meld around a schedule can be harmful to others around me so i do more and more make the effort. If its something i will not make the time for now I just say it out right. My boss always wants me to go snowboarding. Now i love snowboarding. But at this point in my life its taking bit of back seat to the rest of my life. So rather then saying oh... perhaps Saturday... or Ill "try" to meet you up there.. i say flat out thanks but ill pass.

When it comes to practice I sit as often as i can even if only for a short period, as mentioned. If i dont sit for 3 days then I dont sit. I stopped beating myself up and my practice naturally found its rythm. I sit more regularly now then when i used to try to sit 2 x day every day. I accepted the fact that i was not good with schedules. Once i stopped beating my self up over it i found that it was easier to work small changes in. This may sound silly but it worked for me. Today. Not always
I have to thank all of you for this too. We support each other through sharing (hmm sounds really mushy but its true) our stories and offering advice.

Gassho, Shohei

[disastermouse]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

Well, it wouldn't be a problem, except that I'm torn. I know I need a teacher, and that means some commitment - and I really am loathe to let someone down like that. I've never done a seshin, for instance - not sure I could, really.


...

[Fuken]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

If you want to, just give it a try. Pretty much the only way to know.

Gassho, "Fuken" Jordan

[AlanLa]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

In addition to endeavoring to accept (Keishen), I would add that you should accept the endeavor.

And if doing it for yourself is too difficult, then try doing it for others as a means of forgetting the self.

[ScottyDoo]

Re: Do I accept or do I endeavor?

I know I need a teacher, and that means some commitment - and I really am loathe to let someone down like that. I've never done a seshin, for instance - not sure I could, really.

You're not the only one. I've never done a sesshin before, and have a hard time imagining making it through one, but one day I'll be up to the challenge. For now the lack of money and local resources are my excuse of choice for never having been to a retreat or sesshin. My wife also won't let me away for more than an afternoon, let alone a weekend, or heaven forbid, an entire week.