blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

[Jundo]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

Thanks Jundo for the clarification...

still a question though: my weak and underdeveloped understanding of Buddha nature placed it squarely within me, not outside me as something spiritual or deified... I thought it was something "in" every sentient being as a part of that being's true nature... not a soul, but a basic element. Am I making any sense?

Hello Tobiah,

Well, ya first have to ask, "what is Buddha Nature"?

Before I give you my way to say this, let me describe what it has meant to different folks over time:

Some would say that it is just the "potential to become a Buddha, i.e., the potential in all sentient beings to awaken".

Or, some might say that we already are Buddha, our nature is already 'Buddha' ... and maybe we just don't recognize that".

So, in those ways, Buddha Nature is not really a "thing". It is our potential to be a Buddha (like "we all have the potential to learn to play the piano) or a hidden quality (like "we all have a hidden beauty within us even if we can't see it")

As I have mentioned a couple of times. some other folks would reify concepts like Buddha Nature into a kind of spirit, or cosmic consciousness or "Force".

Wikipedia (which is actually pretty good sometimes) has a long description of all the many ways people have thought about "Buddha Nature" and the related concept of tathagatagarbha

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddha-nature

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tathagatagarbha

Surprisingly, it does not (in my view) make much difference whether you think of it as a "force/spirit" or not. So, I don't bother to think of it that way. Let me explain:

One of Dogen's famous statements was that we are Buddha nature, are Buddhas, and it is not merely that we have(possess) 'Buddha' Nature. This is pretty much saying that we are already Buddha, are already all of reality, are already perfectly just-who-we-are ... and just must realize (make real) that fact through our practice and life.

May I suggest to you to look at it this way (pardon if I get a little "Zen corny" here):

Since you are all reality realizing life through you, through you living (i.e., you are reality reality is you) ... since you are a drop of river water that is just the flowing river (i.e. you are the river the river is you) ... to ask if "it" is "in" you or "outside" you is not correct. In fact, drop all thought of "in" "out" "it" "Buddha" "Nature" and "you", and you may realize your Buddha Nature. Then, also know that "you" are already perfectly "you" with every breath you take, perfectly a breathing Buddha, and you may see it that way too.

It is late at night. Am I just muddying the water more? :roll:

Ah, to heck with it ... JUST SIT! Forget the words. It will become clear as a bell!

Gassho, J

[Brock]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

[chicanobudista]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

"OKIWANTYOUTOGOOUTTHEREANDSITSITSITSITANDTHEYAGONN ASITMOREANDGETTHISBUDDHAOFFONONOFFREMEMBER [SPIT][SCRATCHES].....OKTHENYOUVOWGASSHO."

:mrgreen:

[Tobiishi]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

Jundo said:

Since you are all reality realizing life through you, through you living (i.e., you are reality reality is you) ... since you are a drop of river water that is just the flowing river (i.e. you are the river the river is you) ... to ask if "it" is "in" you or "outside" you is not correct. In fact, drop all thought of "in" "out" "it" "Buddha" "Nature" and "you", and you may realize your Buddha Nature. Then, also know that "you" are already perfectly "you" with every breath you take, perfectly a breathing Buddha, and you may see it that way too.

Ok, that helps. It's as jumbled as that many words can get I think, ( ) but it actually made sense. It backs up some of what I've read in "Mud and Water" (Bassui), and kinda... can't find a word. It helps.

One big obstacle to my understanding at this point is the concept of things having no independent reality (that may not be phrased right)... I am waiting on a couple of books in the mail from the Treeleaf reading list, hopefully they will shed some light.

Thanks!
Tobiah

[Tb]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

Since you are all reality realizing life through you, through you living (i.e., you are reality reality is you) ... since you are a drop of river water that is just the flowing river (i.e. you are the river the river is you) ... to ask if "it" is "in" you or "outside" you is not correct.

Hi.

Another way of putting it is "Don't separate hot and cold" as someone says (all the time)...

May the force be with you
Fugen

[BrianW]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

This was a great exchange! Really learned quite a bit from Craig and Tobiah’s questions/Jundo’s responses!

I was recently listening to a podcast by Stephen Batchelor comparing “Buddha Nature” vs. “Mara Nature.” He sees these as what human life is capable of being. One explanation he gave was used an analogy of a valve….”Buddha Nature” is when the valve was open and “Mara Nature” is when the value was closed. In short, “Buddha Nature” represents a capacity for waking up, openness, and freedom where as “Mara Nature” represents everything in us that resists this process. One interesting point he made was the term tathagatagarbha should be translated as “Buddha womb” not “Buddha Nature”…womb having more of a connotation for potential that a thing. (Correct me if I am wrong but Indian Mahayana Sutras use the term tathagatagarbha.)

ME? I take no stand, nor do I feel I need to take a stand.

If there is a "Cosmic Buddha" "the One" or "the Force" ... I fetch wood and carry water. Dropping my "small self" into "emptyness" is prize enough. Liberation.

And if there is no "Cosmic Buddha" "the One" or "the Force" ... I fetch wood and carry water. Dropping my "small self" into "emptyness" is prize enough. Liberation

Great point, but it sure is fun to explore….hope I am not getting too caught up in the academic side of Buddhism.

Gassho,
BrianW

[Jundo]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

Oh, thank you.

[Brock]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

"...the concept of things having no independent reality..."

I am expressly NOT recommending anything or whatever, but you might be able to Google the following terms and find some stuff that may help you: "shunyata" "empty of inherent existence." Maybe even "dependent arising" as well.

[Jundo]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

Hi Tobiah,

I agree with Jon. It is so important to just drop the complexity most of the time, and just sit in simplicity.

At other times, Buddhist philosophy is very useful.

It is a little like sailing a boat, I think: Sometimes we just sail, no complexities, not a care in the world. Just Sailing along.

Sometimes we should check the charts, the compass and the sailing manuals to make sure we are on a good course. Both are good to do sometimes.

One big obstacle to my understanding at this point is the concept of things having no independent reality (that may not be phrased right)... I am waiting on a couple of books in the mail from the Treeleaf reading list, hopefully they will shed some light.

It is actually not such a complex idea, although hard to realize about ourselves.

First off, OF COURSE Tobiah is really there, and exists! Otherwise, who am I writing this email to? :P I would be wasting my time to write to someone who did not exist! :wink:

But, from other perspectives, you do not exist as a "independent being". The two best examples that anyone ever gave me to help me understand are these:

First example:

Suppose you wake up from a nap, forget where you are, and suddenly see you are on a beach, and there are people in swim suits playing on the beach. "Oh," you think," I am on a beach." You think you can even feel the hot sun and the sand. But then you realize, coming awake, that you were only sitting in a movie theatre watching one of those 1950 beach movies! There is no beach, and just light patterns on a screen which your brain labels as "beach" "sand" "people" "Frankie & Annette" etc. Really, it is all photons reflected off a surface, bouncing into your eyes and fooling the brain.

Well, from a Buddhist perspective, our whole lives (including thinking that we are one of the characters in the movie we call "our life") is (from one perspective) a virtual creation of the brain that labels everything, e.g., Tobiah, chair, table, Jundo, etc.

Again, from ONE perspective. Tobiah is there from one perspective, but from another perspective, he is just a virtual creation of sense data, entering through the senses, and organized and labeled by the brain. When the brain stops that activity, the separation vanishes (the beach vanishes, Annette Funicello vanishes, Tobiah vanishes), the separate things all blend together.

Here is a nice photo illusion I found just now: Is this a man touching a photo of a man & baby? Or is is a photo of a man touching a photo? In any case, it is your brain organizing light reflecting from your computer screen.



Second example:

We are each like fingers on your hand which (if they were each conscious) think they are each separate beings (which they are from one perspective). They cannot see that they are (from another perspective) just the hand.



So, you are not an independent existence, for the whole world is just you and you the world.

Think of that sail boat as a symbol for our lives: Takes away any part ... the sun, the water, the wheel, the wind, the ropes or the sailor ... and the sailing would be impossible. Each is a separate thing,, yes, but each is also one.

And so it is with Jon and Tobiah and Jundo.

Gassho, Jundo

[Tobiishi]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

Yes Jundo, thanks for the illustrations... gives me something to ruminate on.

I know this concept is understandable, I just need to stumble upon the explanation that clicks with me!

[Jundo]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

I just need to stumble upon the explanation that clicks with me!

Now, that would be Zazen.

(this is a good place to quote Master Sheng Yen's deathbed poem again)

Busy with nothing, growing old.

Within emptiness, weeping, laughing.

Intrinsically, there is no "I."

Life and death, thus cast aside.

[Craig]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

that poem is amazing. lately i've been trying to be mindful of my feelings. when i drop the 'i', it's quite liberating to just be sad, mad, etc. with no 'i' attached.
craig

[Juko]

Re: blue sky, unconditioned mind, nature of mind, deathless

To all of us who teach each other,

Many thanks for this discussion & how it supports the deepening & ripening of our practice

Gassho, Juko