cultivating attention, then going to shikantaza

[Jinho]

Re: cultivating attention, then going to shikantaza

(Jundo wrote)
You were not actually believing that? :?:

Dear Jundo, please believe that I would not waste your very valuable time here writing things just to watch myself type, or play "devil's advocate" or make casual fatuous or facitious remarks. And I do always type from my own personal experiences.

Actually I have many, many times heard soto people denigrate any understanding beyond "smelling the flowers". Really. As for makyo, one part of the first "how to sit zazen" half-hour class at ZCLA (low those three decades ago) was mentioning the visual effects that happen (clouds of light, the floor undulating, even more graphic "visions" and it being explained that these are merely optical illusions or psychological fantasies, not signs of enlightenment, but not to worry, just let them pass. Personally I have problems with the clouds of light phenomenon, makes me dizzy).

thank you for your time,
jinho

[Rich]

Re: cultivating attention, then going to shikantaza

Jundo said:
"But we do not linger there, take the scene for what it is ... keep moving. It is the whole hike that is important. "

Kind of like only go straight and keep trying?

Jinho said:
Really. As for makyo, one part of the first "how to sit zazen" half-hour class at ZCLA (low those three decades ago) was mentioning the visual effects that happen (clouds of light, the floor undulating, even more graphic "visions" and it being explained that these are merely optical illusions or psychological fantasies, not signs of enlightenment, but not to worry, just let them pass

I never had this experience (at least not while doing zazen) but I do dream a lot.


Jinho said:
"It is a (shock and) relief to hear this. I had come to believe that Soto zen firmly believed that "insights" were delusions and very evil."

Isn't insight just knowing what to do? I can understand how a great insight could become a great delusion.

/Rich

[Jinho]

Re: cultivating attention, then going to shikantaza

I never had this experience (at least not while doing zazen) but I do dream a lot.

Jinho said:
"It is a (shock and) relief to hear this. I had come to believe that Soto zen firmly believed that "insights" were delusions and very evil."

Isn't insight just knowing what to do? I can understand how a great insight could become a great delusion.

/Rich

Greetings,

My insights have not been about "what do to", but rather about how things are (not great words but....). Most zen texts state that insights become delusion when the person believes that one particular insight is all there is to understand (especially the first big one), and when the person believes they have complete understanding after one or a few insights; or if the person clings to one particular understanding in a way that blocks further understanding. Dogen spoke of being enlightened by ALL phenomena, no stopping at one or two.

Are you dreaming alot when doing zazen? Just curious..... Are they useful dreams?

gassho,
rowan/jinho

[will]

Re: cultivating attention, then going to shikantaza

Most zen texts state that insights become delusion when the person believes that one particular insight is all there is to understand (especially the first big one), and when the person believes they have complete understanding after one or a few insights; or if the person clings to one particular understanding in a way that blocks further understanding. Dogen spoke of being enlightened by ALL phenomena, no stopping at one or two.

Good post.

Gassho _/_

[will]

Re: cultivating attention, then going to shikantaza

I'll add to that Jinho.

Even when we do have an understanding, it will change. We might hold on to it for a long time, but it will change.

G,W

[Jinho]

Re: cultivating attention, then going to shikantaza

I think what you are confusing is the fact that, in modern Soto practice, we do not tend to think of any one experience as either a destination or a place to linger.

Our Soto way tends to value ALL the scenery, every part of the hike. In other words, we consider the ordinary as sacred. For that reason, you might think that we devalue some things. It is not true. We just raise up other things until there is no "up" or "down"
Gassho, Jundo

Hi Jundo

I note that you say "in modern Soto practice" as if it was not so in ancient/medieval Soto (or indeed Rinzai or Hua Yen or other zen/chan practice). Having read much of what is available (in english) of mediaval or earlier zen/chan writings, they all say that it is a mistake to think of one destination as a place to linger. As for "our Soto way tends to value ALL the scenery" that is certainly true, but it is true of all other zen/chan ways, certainly from Boddhidharma onwards (before then I haven't read so I can't say). So I am not sure why you say "our Soto way...." But perhaps I am being too legalistic? :wink:

as always, yours,
rowan/jinho

[Jundo]

Re: cultivating attention, then going to shikantaza

Hi Jundo

I note that you say "in modern Soto practice" as if it was not so in ancient/medieval Soto (or indeed Rinzai or Hua Yen or other zen/chan practice). Having read much of what is available (in english) of mediaval or earlier zen/chan writings, they all say that it is a mistake to think of one destination as a place to linger. As for "our Soto way tends to value ALL the scenery" that is certainly true, but it is true of all other zen/chan ways, certainly from Boddhidharma onwards (before then I haven't read so I can't say). So I am not sure why you say "our Soto way...." But perhaps I am being too legalistic? :wink:

as always, yours,
rowan/jinho

Hi Jinho ,

You might take for reference this week's 'Treeleaf Book Club' reading on the 'Eight Kinds of Enlightenment' as imagined during Buddhism's long history (there are actually many more than 'Eight kinds'), and the readings of the previous weeks too.

viewtopic.php?f=2&t=1757

I would say that the answer is on something of a 'sliding scale', depending on where (and no where) the particular flavor of Buddhism, Zen Buddhism in particular, and teacher tended to place emphasis as the "ultimate goal" of this Practice, the importance of such revelations as the keystone and "final destination" of the Buddhist teachings, and the need to escape this world/see it as a dream. In other words, some teachers have placed greater or lesser emphasis on a "final coming-to-rest place", its intimacy with (vs. leaving behind of) this world of Samsara, and the degree that we should leave behind/return to the 'day-to-day' grind of this world.

As you point out, almost all Zen teachers over the centuries (Soto, Rinzai, makes no difference) have been on the "nirvana intimate with Samsara, so let's taste that in the 'day-to-day' and get back to chopping wood'" side of the mix, but it has been a sliding scale even there. Monastics of all stripes tended to be more heavily on the "leaving the demands of this deluded world behind" (I mean, that is the meaning and purpose of the monastic lifestyle!) Certainly current Western Zen teachers are, as a group (and with the greater return to emphasis on lay practice), heavily on the "return to the marketplace" side of the scale, although there are exceptions too. Outside the rigid set routines of the monastery lifestyle, enlightenment is seen as reflected (not only in a particular experience or group of experiences) but in a never ending kaleidoscope of revelations and illuminations.

In a nutshell.

Gassho, Jundo

[Rich]

Re: cultivating attention, then going to shikantaza

Jinho said: "Are you dreaming alot when doing zazen? Just curious..... Are they useful dreams?"

No not alot. I'm trying to pay attention but getting lost in thinking or dreaming happens and I accept that. Maybe enlightenment is just the time in the present moment that is not a dream. Whatever, the important thing for me is to keep trying to be attentive to what I'm doing right now and most of my dreaming will have to wait until sleeptime. Are dreams useful? Yes, I think they have a function but i don't know enough to explain it.

Jundo, I have started the enlightenment reading and hope to learn and comment later.