zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

[Eika]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

it's just so amazing to me that people will jump into zen thinking it's some pure form of buddhism and not be critical of the fact that it is anything but. it supports a basic practice, but has so much baggage that people just buy into. if it works for people, then great. but, zen is not what it seems on the surface and that has left me a bit jaded. at the same time, i am not japanse, or chinese. i'm american. i hate hierarchy and i don't think my head is the most sacred place. so for me to put my rakasu on my head and say a prayer is ridiculous.
so, shikantaza is a keeper, but there needs to be some informed consent in these religions.
just my thoughts.
craig

Hi , Craig. I, too, am suspicious of any activity that seems to be an arbitrary addition to the "core" of something. My only insight is that items I once considered superfluous are now quite integral, and meaningful activities for me(a chant here and there, prostrations, etc). The "give it time" idea is a tricky one. I agree that that sentiment is overused and is often a kind of intellectual laziness ("I don't have a good answer, so just give it time"). However, there are many activities in life that require significant time-investments before there is any noticeable change. I often have students come to me who say "I've been playing piano for 10 years and I'd like to learn jazz improvisation." I, then, give them tasks to complete each week and help them as best I can. But, about every third student gets really impatient at about the three-month mark. I think they presume that all of the Classical piano they studied will give them what they need to become a accomplished improvisor in a few months. The difference between the two fields is great, and it has little to do with their hands and everything to do with their heads. If they can manage to get a conceptual grasp on the path they are studying, then a life-long pursuit and study of improvising doesn't seem so unreasonable. My point is that many worthwhile things do take a long time to develop. Frustration, confusion, anger, etc often accompany skill development. I also concede, however, that there have been times in my life where a practice is simply wrong for me and I know it up front--no long-term time investment is necessary for me to decide.

I would echo the comments above that said that much of what you are frustrated with are human failings, not the failings of the Zen teachings per se. I think that only about 20% of folks in any endeavor (Zen teachers included) are actually self-aware enough to proceed in a way that doesn't reinforce their bad habits. OK . . . that's life I suppose. I am sorry to hear about the climate in the Atlanta center. Maybe there is another group. Maybe your expectations of people are too high. Maybe . . .

Lastly, I really enjoy a book called Buddhism Without Beliefs by Stephen Batchelor. He attempts to spell out a vision of Buddhism that avoids some of the ideological traps that undermine practice. His book is not perfect, and I disagree with some of it, but the spirit of the book is spot on. I highly recommend it.

There are many ways to do this Zen thing or Buddhism thing. Maybe you will find a way to make it happen for you without having to swallow too much junk that you disagree with.

Peace and gassho,
Bill

[Jundo]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

... my issue is with zen in particular and buddhism in general. it's quite disheartening to find so much religiosity, cultural baggage, ritual, in a 'philosophy' that's supposed to integrate with what ever culture it finds itself. it happened in india, korea, japan, china, etc. i think it needs to happen in america.

so i like that you say...'go sit and forget about it all'...i'm still trying to figure out how to 'drop body and mind' but just sitting is what it's all about. so why all the other stuff? for me it's not necessary.

...

the dharma is gonna have to adjust to what we/me as an intellectual/liberal/psychoanalyzed people are...or it will lose folks like me.

The outer wrap of Zen Buddhism is changing greatly as it moves West. The greater emphasis on lay practice over monastics, the greater democracy in what was a feudal institution (arising in societies where the teacher's word was law ... oh, those were the days! :wink: ), the equal place of women ... heck, the use of the internet to bring teachings that were once the preserve of an elite few into everyone's living room. Those are good and great changes to the outer wrapping (you can read about them in books like this one (author interview here: http://atheism.about.com/library/boo...olemanChat.htm ). The coreless core, however, remains unchanged.

Do not throw out the baby with the bath water. Many completely "Japanese" practices which seem silly at first, such as Oryoki formal meal taking,, are worth keeping. ...

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oryoki

... other things, like some of the arcane incense, bell & drum filled rituals, take them or leave them.

However, I hope that Zen Practice NEVER becomes "intellectual" (at least, not more than it has always been) or psychoanalyzed. It is, at its heart, the dropping of excess analysis and self-obsession.

Look, I used to volunteer as a Zen teacher in a maximum security prison. The structure of a prison is much like a monastery, actually, with a daily schedule filled with pointless, boring rituals that one often does not want to do. The purpose of our training is to teach us an inner freedom that even monastery/prison walls cannot hold ... thus it is important that one learn (for example, on the Zafu or in a Sesshin retreat) how to handle dull, pointless, silly, waste of time, arcane, "I hate this" rituals BECAUSE one resists doing them. It is a part of the training. Why? BECAUSE life is so often what we do not like it to be ... and thus we learn to find freedom amid what we resist and do not like.

Often, non-doing, in freedom, what one resists and does not like is the very heart of the matter.

Gassho, Jundo

[Rev R]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

“Once you figure out what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes any sense.”
~Alan Moore “Watchmen”

Hi Craig,

the dharma is gonna have to adjust to what we/me as an intellectual/liberal/psychoanalyzed people are...or it will lose folks like me.

“Awakening” is not through ritual, it's not in a book, and it's not in the words of some dope with a title (no offense Jundo and Taigu). “Awakening” comes through one thing, seeing your nature. Only your own effort will make you see.

For ten years I practiced on my own using whatever tools I had at my disposal. Dharma didn't magically adapt to my needs and experiences, I had to do that on my own. I've been fortunate to have met two good teachers who helped me solidify and ground my practice though it remains unorthodox. (Orthodox isn't exactly a word I would use to describe these two men though. )

If you feel the buddha-dharma needs to adapt, then do it. Shikantaza works for you, excellent! Do it. Don't wait for everyone else to come around. To borrow from Ghandi, “be the change you wish to see.”

There is absolutely nothing wrong with applying a little Jeet Kun Do to your Zen.

My apologies if it seems abrupt, diplomacy is not my strong suit.

R

[Craig]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

“Once you figure out what a joke everything is, being the comedian is the only thing that makes any sense.”
~Alan Moore “Watchmen”

Hi Craig,

the dharma is gonna have to adjust to what we/me as an intellectual/liberal/psychoanalyzed people are...or it will lose folks like me.

“Awakening” is not through ritual, it's not in a book, and it's not in the words of some dope with a title (no offense Jundo and Taigu). “Awakening” comes through one thing, seeing your nature. Only your own effort will make you see.

For ten years I practiced on my own using whatever tools I had at my disposal. Dharma didn't magically adapt to my needs and experiences, I had to do that on my own. I've been fortunate to have met two good teachers who helped me solidify and ground my practice though it remains unorthodox. (Orthodox isn't exactly a word I would use to describe these two men though. )

If you feel the buddha-dharma needs to adapt, then do it. Shikantaza works for you, excellent! Do it. Don't wait for everyone else to come around. To borrow from Ghandi, “be the change you wish to see.”

There is absolutely nothing wrong with applying a little Jeet Kun Do to your Zen.

My apologies if it seems abrupt, diplomacy is not my strong suit.

R

well i'm not saying that the dharma has to adapt to me per say. the four noble truths, the precepts, and zazen seem to be essential...buddhism on the other hand, maybe not. so i'm gonna just sit and i agree, me getting caught up in all this other stuff is my own doing. it's just ironic that zen stuff would get in the way of zen. i just want to get through life and have a 'good death'. no joke.
craig

[Craig]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

it's just so amazing to me that people will jump into zen thinking it's some pure form of buddhism and not be critical of the fact that it is anything but. it supports a basic practice, but has so much baggage that people just buy into. if it works for people, then great. but, zen is not what it seems on the surface and that has left me a bit jaded. at the same time, i am not japanse, or chinese. i'm american. i hate hierarchy and i don't think my head is the most sacred place. so for me to put my rakasu on my head and say a prayer is ridiculous.
so, shikantaza is a keeper, but there needs to be some informed consent in these religions.
just my thoughts.
craig

Hi , Craig. I, too, am suspicious of any activity that seems to be an arbitrary addition to the "core" of something. My only insight is that items I once considered superfluous are now quite integral, and meaningful activities for me(a chant here and there, prostrations, etc). The "give it time" idea is a tricky one. I agree that that sentiment is overused and is often a kind of intellectual laziness ("I don't have a good answer, so just give it time"). However, there are many activities in life that require significant time-investments before there is any noticeable change. I often have students come to me who say "I've been playing piano for 10 years and I'd like to learn jazz improvisation." I, then, give them tasks to complete each week and help them as best I can. But, about every third student gets really impatient at about the three-month mark. I think they presume that all of the Classical piano they studied will give them what they need to become a accomplished improvisor in a few months. The difference between the two fields is great, and it has little to do with their hands and everything to do with their heads. If they can manage to get a conceptual grasp on the path they are studying, then a life-long pursuit and study of improvising doesn't seem so unreasonable. My point is that many worthwhile things do take a long time to develop. Frustration, confusion, anger, etc often accompany skill development. I also concede, however, that there have been times in my life where a practice is simply wrong for me and I know it up front--no long-term time investment is necessary for me to decide.

I would echo the comments above that said that much of what you are frustrated with are human failings, not the failings of the Zen teachings per se. I think that only about 20% of folks in any endeavor (Zen teachers included) are actually self-aware enough to proceed in a way that doesn't reinforce their bad habits. OK . . . that's life I suppose. I am sorry to hear about the climate in the Atlanta center. Maybe there is another group. Maybe your expectations of people are too high. Maybe . . .

Lastly, I really enjoy a book called Buddhism Without Beliefs by Stephen Batchelor. He attempts to spell out a vision of Buddhism that avoids some of the ideological traps that undermine practice. His book is not perfect, and I disagree with some of it, but the spirit of the book is spot on. I highly recommend it.

There are many ways to do this Zen thing or Buddhism thing. Maybe you will find a way to make it happen for you without having to swallow too much junk that you disagree with.

Peace and gassho,
Bill

well, 'just stick it out' is not much of a compassionate response as far as i am concerned. at the same time, i don't need the endorsement of some teacher or community to practice. it's all my work to do.
regarding Batchelor's book...it was interesting but kind of lacked focus.
craig

[Craig]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

life is so often as we do not like it to be ... and thus we learn to find freedom amid what we resist and do not like.

Often, non-doing, in freedom, what one resists and does not like is the very heart of the matter.

right Jundo. i'm with you here. i totally agree with you. can i call you my teacher?
i have enough of stuff i resist in my life...adding 'stuff' to the practice that is supposed to help me just seems crazy. i actually love the heart sutra, i like bowing, and i'm indifferent to oryoki. i don't like zen-speak, koans about cats being cut in half, not taking responsibility for one's traditions past transgressions, and lack of critical thinking.
peace
craig

[vflam2]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

I've had a very similar experience with the local zen teacher/center as Craig's. There was clearly an 'in' group and an 'out' group. there was a lot of 'stink' there.

i went back and back and back for years, and i certainly found some things that were somewhat useful, but honestly, not much. it helped me in that i realized that all of these people - zen teacher and senior students included - were just people like me. they may have been sitting for a long time and done many sesshins, but they still had personalities and many were not particular welcoming and a few were just plain arrogant (unfortunately, the teacher and one of his senior students fell into this category - admittedly, in my opinion).

there is an idea about spiritual practice that it can produce 'better' people - in fact, it seems that more than a few of the folks i sat with could use a little less zazen and a little more therapy.

nonetheless, zazen does something! so, i sit, and i'm not sure why. i am very happy to have found this online sangha, so far, i seem to fit here and i am grateful for that.

i completely love the quote below from Jundo - i think it gets to the reality of living, that's why i've included it again in this post.

warmly,
vince

Please just recall that, in our Soto way, we are not on the hunt for spiritual experiences, peak moments, fireworks and zippy-dippy trips. Oh, sure, there will be those ... but our Soto way is to observe them, perhaps pick up a fresh perspective here or there, often yawn, and move along. We neither chase after them, nor need them, nor push them away when they happen to come. We honor the "Ordinary as Sacred". In fact, we really do value the "spiritual experiences" no more than we value this moment, or breathing, or driving the car.

For this moment, each breath and driving a car are wonderful, when seen with a Buddha's Eyes!

Gassho, Jundo[/quote]

[Craig]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

http://www.geocities.com/jiji_muge/uszen3.html


the above is a link to an article that raises some of the same questions i have had about zen. i think it's a well known article from the 1990s. its worth a look.

craig

[Jundo]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

http://www.geocities.com/jiji_muge/uszen3.html


the above is a link to an article that raises some of the same questions i have had about zen. i think it's a well known article from the 1990s. its worth a look.

craig

Hi Craig,

We had some detailed discussions before about Stuart Lachs articles, most recently during our Precepts study. He over states the case a bit, but not by much. Any group is prone to power trips, sexual hanky panky, and overly idealized images of the person who is the "leader" or "teacher", even Buddhist groups.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1238&p=17588&hilit=stuart#p175 88

Since that time, most Sangha I am familiar with have instituted various checks and ethical guidelines and mechanisms to prevent such things. The situation at San Francisco Zen Center in the 70's was unusual, due largely to the meglomaniacal personality of Baker Roshi. It was extreme (and even then didn't really involve physical violence, drugs or anything like that). You should visit the place now to see what a treasure they have turned it into over the subsequent 30 years.

Gassho, Jundo

[Craig]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

http://www.geocities.com/jiji_muge/uszen3.html


the above is a link to an article that raises some of the same questions i have had about zen. i think it's a well known article from the 1990s. its worth a look.

craig

Hi Craig,

We had some detailed discussions before about Stuart Lachs articles, most recently during our Precepts study. He over states the case a bit, but not by much. Any group is prone to power trips, sexual hanky panky, and overly idealized images of the person who is the "leader" or "teacher", even Buddhist groups.

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=1238&p=17588&hilit=stuart#p175 88

Since that time, most Sangha I am familiar with have instituted various checks and ethical guidelines and mechanisms to prevent such things. The situation at San Francisco Zen Center in the 70's was unusual, due largely to the meglomaniacal personality of Baker Roshi. It was extreme (and even then didn't really involve physical violence, drugs or anything like that). You should visit the place now to see what a treasure they have turned it into over the subsequent 30 years.

Gassho, Jundo

thanks jundo, the article was interesting and i appreciate your comments on the subject.
craig

[Keishin]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

Hellos to all posting here!
It is an interesting discussion going on here. I started a reply days ago, but am only getting around to posting it here:

consider family gatherings
sanghas are not unlike that, so even if you 'leave home,' you can't get away from people being people.

Hakuin Zenji's Song of Zazen starts: "All sentient beings are essentially Buddhas. As with water and ice, there is no ice without water; apart from sentient beings, there are no Buddhas. Not knowing how close the truth is, we seek it far away--what a pity! We are like one who in the midst of water cries out desperately in thirst. ..... (and it ends As the eternal tranquility of Truth reveals itself to us, this very place is the Land of Lotuses and this very body is the body of the Buddha."

Even in a sangha where it appears the worst of all personality types have gathered themselves in a collective perfectly depicting your own personal version of hell, zazen is still zazen, and during zazen all members are mutually supporting each other in zazen.
And at some point zazen happens not only during zazen, but more and more, and then almost all the time.
It is actually EXCELLENT practice and tremendous good fortune to have clay feet revealed, expectations dashed and illusions about 'zen' shattered.
To have all of this happen at one go at a sangha is like playing the card game of Hearts and 'shooting the moon' (collecting all of the 'bad' cards so that they end up not counting against you--but rather making you the winner!!) In other words bad luck ends up being good luck.
Obviously self knowledge (to study the self) is a self-directed learning course in the university without walls called LIFE, but you and the universe kind of work out the requirements in a mutually dependent co-arising kind of way.
Surely we all know when it is time to leave (the party, the spouse, the job, the sangha), and surely we all know when leaving is not what is to be done and surely we all know about fence sitting, or reading the horoscope, or consulting the I Ching or tossing a coin when we don't know.

No one else can really make the call for you, although many will throw in their two cents.

You come to an understanding that there is no place to go, even if you leave and there is no place to stay even if you remain.

[Craig]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

Hellos to all posting here!

And at some point zazen happens not only during zazen, but more and more, and then almost all the time.
It is actually EXCELLENT practice and tremendous good fortune to have clay feet revealed, expectations dashed and illusions about 'zen' shattered.

Surely we all know when it is time to leave (the party, the spouse, the job, the sangha), and surely we all know when leaving is not what is to be done and surely we all know about fence sitting, or reading the horoscope, or consulting the I Ching or tossing a coin when we don't know.


You come to an understanding that there is no place to go, even if you leave and there is no place to stay even if you remain.

well many things you say here blow my mind. thank you. what you say about zazen happening all the time is some thing i really want in life. and you are right, i definitely had expectations about zen and those have been dashed. this is a good thing and i'm kind of enjoying it. the other side of the coin is realizing that there is no place to go. everywhere i go, there's me! also, realizing that all this hemming and hawing i am doing over zen is proof positive of suffering!
thanks again.
peace
craig

[Jundo]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

Thank you, Keishin. 9 Bows. That post is very vital, very wise, I think. Everyone should take note of what you said.

9 Bows, Jundo

[ellbogen]

Re: zen's shadow side--lack of critique?

I also really like what Keishin says here. I will add one thing that "blew my mind" from a seemingly unlikely source. I met a guy at the Zen center in question who, for all the world, looked like someone many people would label as a "redneck." We were chatting, and he asked where I was from. I don't have a regular practice center and have practiced a lot of different places. I mentioned a couple of semi-exotic Zen settings I had visited, and he said, "That sounds really nice, but it all looks the same from the cushion." Truer words could not be said. Ultimately, if you can do Zazen at a place, the rest is details. That was one of the best things I've ever heard anyone say about Zen.

best,
Elizabeth