Practicing with noisy neighbor

[shikantazen]

Hello All,

I have a neighbor whose 8 year old plays a musical instrument several times in the day. I try to sleep early (9 pm or so) and as per community guidelines slience is not enforced till 11 pm. We requested them not to play during the night but they didn't stop.

Few days back I started hitting on the common wall a few times after 9 pm when they were making nosie and this seems to have worked. I was sitting a part-day sesshin this weekend. I started hearing the noise again yesterday after 9 pm (when I'm trying to sleep). I started hitting on the wall. They didn't stop so I hit harder. They then started hitting the wall back and continued playing. I was angry probably due to the sesshin (overload due to 3 sittings in the day) and was worked up on this. I stopped hitting the wall and they also stopped the instrument after sometime.

Today they are doing it again and it seems to be causing anger in me. I want to avoid hitting the wall and let it go. Then I am afraid they will continue to do more. Or I could gently hit a few times as reminder and leave it there not getting worked up if they don't stop. What bothers me is less of the noise and more the fact that they are ignoring my requests and playing in the night. My ego is probably getting hurt. I feel I am not practicing with this right. Seeking some guidance from others

Gassho,
Sam

[Prashanth]

Befote your ego, your hand will definitely get hurt.
Perhaps try talking to them in the daytime and instead of bringing up rules, explain that this is the time for your meditation. They too can sit with you if they want [emoji6].

People with kids have their own challenges.

Gassho.

Sat

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[Bion]

They are ignoring your request to stop just as much as you are ignoring the child’s need or desire to play or practice or whatever it is they’re doing. Imagine instead of noisy child it’s thunder, or a loud bird outside your window, or the incessant creaking of wood or the howling of the wind through the flimsy walls of your hut. Your story remind me of a poem written by Rengetsu, a buddhist nun :

“The roar of a waterfall
The howl of a
Mountain storm ー
I am used to them shouting
At me until morning.”


[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Kotei]

You remind me on the talk by Shunryu Suzuki Roshi about noise vs. sound.
One of them has it`s origin mostly between the ears. ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHNyCAJXUXE

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Bion]

You remind me on the talk by Shunryu Suzuki Roshi about noise vs. sound.
One of them has it`s origin mostly between the ears. ;-)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pHNyCAJXUXE

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

That is a classic!!! [emoji1374][emoji3526]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Chikyou]

Ah, apartments. I lived in an apartment complex with very poor accoustic insulation for about ten years.

I think you should on the door and have a conversation about it (and should probably apologize for banging on their wall too as that's just seen as threatening and obnoxious from the other side of the wall, been there done that).

They may not realize that you can hear them. Heck, my apartment was so bad that my upstairs neighbors snoring kept me awake! They harassed me constantly about noise even during reasonable hours until I pointed out the snoring (petty, possibly).

A good quality white noise machine is a blessing. I recommend 'Lectrofan brand.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho,
SatLah
Kelly

[Gareth]

Regular playing after 10 would seem unreasonable, but finishing by 9 seems a bit early? Maybe explain to them again and negotiate 9.30? Perhaps they will understand if you explain your situation again and ask for a slightly later time.

Gassho,
Gareth

Sat today, Lah

[Koushi]

Hi Sam,

I also live in an apartment where everything can be heard. Like you, the complex's noice ordinance doesn't kick in until 11pm. A couple of years ago, I had a group of college-age kids above me who were music majors. From 8am to 11pm every day, I could hear singing, practicing, instruments clanging—the occasional party or two.

At first it was annoying, I'm a quiet person by nature and am (overly) aware of noise I make in my apartment/public places. After a while though, the annoying sounds of windwood instruments and off-key singing turned into just another soundtrack going on around me. Same as the birds, gardener's leaf blowers, even the periodic gunfire. All just happenings that were.

That being said, I do carry noise cancelling headphones—and have brown noise on standby when I'm going to bed. From a non-Zen standpoint, if the rules say 11pm, it may be annoying, but they're following the rules at 9pm. Perhaps try to see it as just another sound in the background of your life—speak to them for an understanding rather than banging on the wall back and forth—and if all fails, focus on what you can do, rather than what they're doing.

Sorry for running long,
Gassho,
koushi
STLaH

[Jundo]

I am so glad that Koushi put up Suzuki Roshi's talk on "Sound" and "Noise." I was just looking for that to post it here.

So, there are two aspects to this issue. One is the basic issue of living in an apartment building with thin wall, and your having a right to sleep. You are fully justified in your protest. Try not to get SUPER ANGRY, but it is very human to be a bit irritated by this. (As I said in a talk this week, "Don't be irritated about being a bit irritated sometimes." It is human, we are not robots, you need your sleep.)

I would also suggest perhaps some kind of sleep earplug or something like that? I see that they sell such things, but I have no experience with them:

https://www.healthline.com/health/best-earplugs-for-sleeping

But, finally, this is a true opportunity to practice! The people next door are Buddha, and they are giving you a GIFT of this opportunity to work with annoyance, disturbance, sleep deprivation and all the rest. Gassho in their direction with gratitude for this, wishing them well ...

... (then place your speakers next to the wall, turn up you stereo and bombard them with the Sex Pistols at high volume).

In all seriousness, DO NOT do this last, as I recommend against retribution and escalation. But maybe bring flowers and try to negotiate with them again.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[shikantazen]

Thanks all for your responses. This is an interesting scenario where it feels like controlling outside environment (banging on the wall) seem to work but is not the right thing to do as 1) outside world is an illusion and 2) it is not the right thing to do ethically. Hitting on the wall is an immediate feedback; otherwise people won't realize (with requests) as there is no motivation to stop.

This is interesting example as it reflects other problems in life (e.g., difficult people at work). It is much easier to solve them by "giving it back" (manipulate outside world) rather than following ethics and compassion. But by doing that it looks like we are not practicing right as a zen student, not making use of these vaulable gifts. How important is practcing in this way? What will we learn from this? Our problems seem to remain with this kinder approach so wondering why it is still important to do this

I always felt doing my daily zazen one day will make me compassionate enough and till then it is better to follow my natural reactions & practical solutions to solve my problems and suffering. And don't sign up for more kindness than I have as it won't solve my problem / suffering and it will be hard to react differently from what my natural instincts tell me to do (e.g., give it back to rude ppl)

Gassho,
Sam
ST

[Jundo]

1) outside world is an illusion

We don't believe that the outside world is an illusion except in a very special sense. It is something like saying "my life is like a dream, but it is a dream in which I have to suffer dream noisy neighbors in a dream cheap apartment and a dream lack of sleep." It is a dream ... but a real noisy and sleepless dream.

Banging on the wall is fine. Playing loud "Sex Pistols" may also be fine. Both are non-violent responses to get your point across. Punching the guy in the nose is NOT FINE. Banging and Sex Pistols may be creating tensions and conflict so that he punches YOU in the nose, and that is also not recommended.

Flowers and an attempt at negotiation is what I would suggest ... even if dream flowers in a dream negotiation. In the end, an effective but non-violent, non-angry approach is recommended. I think that your rudeness will just be counter-productive anyway, and make the people PLAY MORE LOUDLY! Sex pistols might work, because the people will realize that they will have a price to pay, but it may just cause the guy to punch you or slash your tires too.

That is why I recommend peaceful negotiation first, for very practical reasons.

Gassho, Jundo

stlah

Sorry to run long

STLah

[Shoki]

Although I live on a quiet street, my old house is a constant chorus of squeaky floors (with nobody walking on them), clinking water pipes, clanging heating ducts, and clicking of expanding and contracting PVC pipes. Of course the ground zero of all this noise is in the small room in my basement where I sit.

All the advice given here is good but sometimes I resort to ear plugs. I use a brand called Mack's and they do cut the noise out. I hope that's not cheating!

Gassho
STlah
Shoki

[Gareth]

It is really tempting to post ways that you could be even more annoying than via the Sex Pistols…

I do think you could get a better result by showing flexibility about the 9pm though, which the parents may see as kindness towards their kids - they may even try hard to have their kids finish by 9pm.

Gassho,
Gareth
Sat today, Lah

[Rich]

There are wall soundproofing materials but some are rather expensive. Maybe start with foam packaging materials duck taped to wall. Electronic dept/ stores toss that out. Meet your neighbors and discuss in non confrontational manner. Listen deeply to their concerns. Maybe they could practice in a different room or aim the sound waves away from you

May your sleep be undisturbed

Sat/lah


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[Ryumon]

Noise-cancelling headphones.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat