Over-promising Meditation: Not A Cure for Everything

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  • Jundo
    Treeleaf Founder and Priest
    • Apr 2006
    • 40987

    Over-promising Meditation: Not A Cure for Everything

    The following was reported today in the news, I am glad to see it. It is time for a more balanced, realistic view on the benefits of meditation.

    That's not to say that teaching meditation, even to kids, is a bad thing at all. But the promises of meditation, including Zazen, can be oversold. It is like saying that eating more vegetables for school kids is the answer to everything. It is not the answer to everything that plagues teenagers, although it is a very good, even extremely beneficial (perhaps indispensable, even if not in the same was as spinach) thing.

    There is a crisis in teen mental health, and schools in many countries are exploring different ways to make young people more resilient.

    However, a UK-based research project, the largest of its kind on the subject, has suggested mindfulness training in schools might be a dead end -- at least as a universal, one-size-fits-all approach.

    The study, which involved 28,000 children, 650 teachers and 100 schools, looked at the impact of mindfulness training over an eight-year period and found that the technique didn't help the mental health and well-being of adolescents ages 11 to 14. The authors suggested investigating other options to improve adolescent mental health.
    https://us.cnn.com/2022/07/12/health...ess/index.html

    Furthermore, many (including me) are critical of "mindfulness" meditation for leaving out so much of the power in Buddhist teachings, turning meditation into merely a stress reduction measure, or a means to be better and more compliant employees, consumers, soldiers. (you can read more about such issues here: https://www.mountaincloud.org/beyond...id-loy-part-1/)

    As well, Zazen is not a cure for EVERYTHING that ails one, psychologically, physically, socially:

    Zazen is -NOT- a cure for many things ... it will not fix a bad tooth (just allow you to be present with the toothache ... you had better see a dentist, not a Zen teacher), cure cancer (although it may have some healthful effects and make one more attune to the process of chemotherapy and/or dying), etc. Zen practice will not cure your acne on your face, or fix your flat tire. All it will do is let one "be at one, and whole" ... TRULY ONE ... with one's pimples and punctured wheel, accepting and embracing of each, WHOLLY WHOLE with/as each one. There are many psychological problems or psycho/medical problems such as alcoholism that may require other therapies, although Zen can be part of a 12-Step program or such (a few Zen teachers in America with a drinking problem had to seek outside help). My feeling is that some things are probably best handled by medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment, not Zen teachers.

    My feeling is that receiving outside treatment, medication AND "just sitting" can all work together WHEN the doctor approves and your heart feels right.
    One might say that Zazen is a "cure-none-cure" for all that ails us: It will not fix one's bad tooth, yet it will allow one to realize the "Emptiness" in which ... in one sense ... there was never a "tooth" to throb from the start!

    However, if somebody thought that having a bunch of teens and pre-teens sitting meditation would significantly help them or our schools ... I bet most of the kids were sitting there thinking about video games and tik-tok the whole time.

    Gassho, J

    STLah
    Last edited by Jundo; 07-14-2022, 06:52 AM.
    ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE
  • Artien
    Member
    • Jun 2022
    • 56

    #2
    Meditation, Buddhism and Yoga helped me much in my teenage years, but I doubt it would have helped many of my peers. Just meditation can be helpful, but as you point out it leaves out the wider view of Buddhist teachings in which meditation is only a part.

    As I read and understand (and wrongly paraphrase no doubt) in "opening the hand of thought" and "Zen mind beginners mind" is that if you sit Zazen with a goal in mind, you are by definition doing "bad Zazen". If you only do Zazen when you sit, you also do "bad Zazen", your life needs to be Zazen not just your sitting.

    Sorry for running long. It is a subject I find interesting due to my own experiences.

    Thank you.

    Gassho,

    Artien
    SatToday

    Comment

    • Wabo
      Member
      • Nov 2018
      • 88

      #3
      I agree. It looks very vulgar when they try to turn zazen into "mindfulness therapy." It seems to me that the worst thing is when Buddhists themselves put on the skin of psychotherapists

      Gassho
      Wabo
      ST

      Comment

      • Kokuu
        Dharma Transmitted Priest
        • Nov 2012
        • 6928

        #4
        That is good to see. Thank you for sharing, Jundo.

        My friend Stephen is doing a PhD in the history of modern mindfulness meditation and has found that the scientific basis for its widespread usage is far less clear than is often assumed. However, its development was a gift to medical systems that were struggling to meet the need for pain management and, more recently, mental health issues, and mindfulness provided a seemingly effective and low cost intervention.

        It seems long overdue to re-assess the idea of mindfulness meditation as a universal panacea so that it can be used where there is evidence for it, but not expected to work miracles.

        Apologies for running long.

        Gassho
        Kokuu
        -sattoday-

        Comment

        • Huichan
          Member
          • Jan 2022
          • 234

          #5
          I'm currently writing a report as part of some CPD I'm doing that is about staff wellbeing at my school, with the aim of making some suggestions based on my research of how we can improve it. As much as I'd personally like to suggest that we should set up a Zazen group at the school , I'm obviously not going to do it . I've hinted to the possibility of some kind of mindfulness training but it's literally at the bottom of the list. It seems like almost all of my other suggestions are related to improving aspects of communication and building up relationships, which if we could do better would probably have more of an impact?

          Gassho
          Ross
          stlah

          apologies for running long
          慧禅 | Huìchán | Ross

          Comment

          • Ryumon
            Member
            • Apr 2007
            • 1818

            #6
            Originally posted by Kokuu
            It seems long overdue to re-assess the idea of mindfulness meditation as a universal panacea so that it can be used where there is evidence for it, but not expected to work miracles.
            I've always felt that "mindfulness meditation" can only have a positive effect if the people doing it have chosen to do so voluntarily. Forcing a bunch of teenagers to sit most likely has no effect, and may even turn them off from ever trying meditation/zazen in the future.

            Gassho,

            Ryūmon (Kirk)

            sat
            I know nothing.

            Comment

            • Ryumon
              Member
              • Apr 2007
              • 1818

              #7
              Originally posted by Wabo
              I agree. It looks very vulgar when they try to turn zazen into "mindfulness therapy." It seems to me that the worst thing is when Buddhists themselves put on the skin of psychotherapists
              The problem is that there are many "Buddhist psychotherapists," many of whom have written books, which enforces the idea that this practice is a therapy. You can also see how, in a lot of popular books about Buddhism, they tend to read like self-help books for psychological issues, rather than true dharma teachings. This has always annoyed me.

              Gassho,

              Ryūmon (Kirk)

              sat
              I know nothing.

              Comment

              • Meian
                Member
                • Apr 2015
                • 1720

                #8
                This is a big reason why I recently changed neurologists. Former one kept insisting that if only I'd meditate more (even ignoring family needs), then my migraines would heal and my body would heal itself of everything (miraculous cures). In essence, the old trope of 'blame the patient' for being ill -- in this case, autoimmune illness with decades of migraines.

                He never asked me about my existing practice, though.

                Gassho, meian st

                Sent from my SM-G975U using Tapatalk
                鏡道 |​ Kyodo (Meian) | "Mirror of the Way"
                visiting Unsui
                Nothing I say is a teaching, it's just my own opinion.

                Comment

                • Jundo
                  Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                  • Apr 2006
                  • 40987

                  #9
                  Originally posted by Ryumon
                  The problem is that there are many "Buddhist psychotherapists," many of whom have written books, which enforces the idea that this practice is a therapy. You can also see how, in a lot of popular books about Buddhism, they tend to read like self-help books for psychological issues, rather than true dharma teachings. This has always annoyed me.
                  Originally posted by Meian
                  This is a big reason why I recently changed neurologists. Former one kept insisting that if only I'd meditate more (even ignoring family needs), then my migraines would heal and my body would heal itself of everything (miraculous cures). In essence, the old trope of 'blame the patient' for being ill -- in this case, autoimmune illness with decades of migraines.

                  He never asked me about my existing practice, though.

                  Gassho, meian st
                  BUT, I am going to say something about both of the above:

                  Here, in our Soto Sangha inspired by old Dogen, we practice a Zazen that is neither a psychological therapy nor a medical treatment (except, of course, in the profound, ultimate treatment of allowing one to be free of suffering and little self in a Buddhist sense, thus free of the ultimate existential "angst.")

                  However, that does not mean that some meditation, including Shikantaza, cannot have profound, positive effects regarding many psychological issues such as depression (as we learn to "buy into" our thoughts less, and have greater equanimity), anxiety, anger issues and the like. It sure has we me, in my life. However, I am not a licensed psychologist, so I cannot really discuss that, and it is only my reasoned conclusion and personal experience.

                  Second, I am not a medical doctor or expert in migraines, so I cannot say at all if it does or it does not help with that. Perhaps it does, don't write meditation off for migraine treatment too quickly. Some studies indicate so, for whatever reason:


                  and
                  Many common medication treatments for migraine can cause side effects, underlining the need for more tolerable treatments. Mindfulness practice has been associated with improvement in people...


                  So, even though that is not our principal reason for sitting Zazen, neither should we too easily discount the possibility. We sit with "no goal" in Shikantaza (which, actually, is the greatest stress reliever in our constantly goal driven lives), but that does not mean that many good "side effects" don't come from Shikantaza too.

                  Sorry to run long.

                  Gassho, Jundo

                  STLan
                  Last edited by Jundo; 07-14-2022, 12:27 PM.
                  ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                  Comment

                  • Bion
                    Senior Priest-in-Training
                    • Aug 2020
                    • 4977

                    #10
                    Originally posted by Jundo
                    BUT, I am going to say something about both of the above:

                    Here, in our Soto Sangha inspired by old Dogen, we practice a Zazen that is neither a psychological therapy nor a medical treatment (except, of course, in the profound, ultimate treatment of allowing one to be free of suffering and little self in a Buddhist sense, thus free of the ultimate existential "angst.")

                    However, that does not mean that some meditation, including Shikantaza, cannot have profound, positive effects regarding many psychological issues such as depression (as we learn to "buy into" our thoughts less, and have greater equanimity), anxiety, anger issues and the like. It sure has we me, in my life. However, I am not a licensed psychologist, so I cannot really discuss that, and it is only my reasoned conclusion and personal experience.

                    Second, I am not a medical doctor or expert in migraines, so I cannot say at all if it does or it does not help with that. Perhaps it does, don't write meditation off for migraine treatment too quickly. Some studies indicate so, for whatever reason:


                    and
                    Many common medication treatments for migraine can cause side effects, underlining the need for more tolerable treatments. Mindfulness practice has been associated with improvement in people...


                    So, even though that is not our principal reason for sitting Zazen, neither should we too easily discount the possibility. We sit with "no goal" in Shikantaza (which, actually, is the greatest stress reliever in our constantly goal driven lives), but that does not mean that many good "side effects" don't come from Shikantaza too.

                    Sorry to run long.

                    Gassho, Jundo

                    STLan
                    The thing that makes zazen so special to me, is that it is sure to have beneficial effects if done, yet the side effects depend on doing it with complete faith and a dropping off of the certainty or expectation of beneficial side-effects. ( it is also hard to word out [emoji23]).

                    [emoji1374] Sat Today
                    "Stepping back with open hands, is thoroughly comprehending life and death. Immediately you can sparkle and respond to the world." - Hongzhi

                    Comment

                    • Jundo
                      Treeleaf Founder and Priest
                      • Apr 2006
                      • 40987

                      #11
                      Originally posted by Bion
                      ... yet the side effects depend on doing it with complete faith and a dropping off of the certainty or expectation of beneficial side-effects.
                      Yes, that is the crazy-wise "trick" to it ...
                      ALL OF LIFE IS OUR TEMPLE

                      Comment

                      • Chikyou
                        Member
                        • May 2022
                        • 696

                        #12
                        My experience with Buddhism has been that it has definitely been an extremely healing experience - it's given me a sense of wholeness that nothing else (INCLUDING professional "help") has.

                        However, I don't believe it was Zazen (except in the sense that "EVERYTHING is Zazen") that did it. It was those wonderful Dharma teachings that "mindfulness" strips away, presenting meditation as an act or discipline totally devoid of its contextual backbone.

                        They took the Buddha out of Buddhism and sold what's left as a cheap cure-all. Having seen this, I have a really hard time taking "mindfulness" seriously.

                        Sorry to run long

                        Gassho,
                        SatToday
                        Kelly
                        Chikyō 知鏡
                        (KellyLM)

                        Comment

                        • Tom A.
                          Member
                          • May 2020
                          • 255

                          #13
                          Thank you for this, couldn’t agree more! Meditation is often wrongly used as a safety seeking behavior, short term avoidance that leads to greater problems in the long run. It is a problem for everyone but can be dangerous for those with severe anxiety and depression. It is like trying to put out the fire in the shed while your house is burning down behind you. An extreme version of this is summed up in the phrase “victim of the dharma.” The stereotypical westerner that (sparked by suffering due to depression or a big life event) goes to India, meditates for years, then realizes that they never valued that life at all and really wanted a career, spouse, and family. I think it is best not to divorce meditation from Buddhism (unless in a therapeutic context) and to be really honest and clear about our deepest values and priorities so we don’t use it as another hedonic escape from dealing with life.

                          Gassho,

                          Tom

                          Sat
                          “Do what’s hard to do when it is the right thing to do.”- Robert Sopalsky

                          Comment

                          • Heiso
                            Member
                            • Jan 2019
                            • 834

                            #14
                            While my Zen practice has had a profoundly positive impact on my entire life but it annoys me when places like my employer insist we try the mindfulness sessions they put on for us so we can work longer and harder. Apart from anything it does nothing to address the underlying issues of any stress or suffering we might be experiencing.

                            Gassho,

                            Heiso

                            StLah

                            Comment

                            • Wabo
                              Member
                              • Nov 2018
                              • 88

                              #15
                              Originally posted by Ryumon
                              The problem is that there are many "Buddhist psychotherapists," many of whom have written books, which enforces the idea that this practice is a therapy. You can also see how, in a lot of popular books about Buddhism, they tend to read like self-help books for psychological issues, rather than true dharma teachings. This has always annoyed me.

                              Gassho,

                              Ryūmon (Kirk)

                              sat
                              I met similar literature only in esoteric shops. I did not find anything more or less scientific in it. Especially when such books are on the same shelf with literature on the healing power of natural minerals

                              When I go to these stores, I feel like I'm in the trash, scouring around trying to find something worthwhile. But, I must admit, sometimes I find good academic literature there

                              Gassho
                              Wabo
                              ST

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