Unsatisfactory nature of career achievement

[noz]

Hi all, in college I decided (or felt peer pressure to decide) to achieve career success and ensure I'd “leave my legacy on the world.” With a lot of striving, I have gotten pretty much everything I could have wanted: a degree, a post-graduate degree in my field, publications, recognition from family and friends for my “accomplishments.”

I began sitting zazen over 5 years ago, and although I know I am not supposed to sit with any mind toward “better” or “worse,” my life is surely “better” since I started to sit. In the sense that I go easier on myself now. I’m not quite as caught up in the eight worldly winds as I used to be. (Which should tell you something about how I used to be!!)

With the practice though, my desire for achievement has gone way, way down. And I'm kind of scared by this. Even though, day to day, I feel more at peace.

But I still feel afraid to accept that no matter how many gold stars I collect, it won't “matter.” (Especially "in the long run," considering the impermanent nature of things.)

I should also say that yesterday I had a publication, but holding the magazine in my hands, I felt absolutely nothing. I felt like I should feel something, but I didn’t really feel anything. (Except maybe disappointment at not feeling more.)

I know I'm not the first human to ask "why do anything?" but I'm feeling a bit down today and wanted to hear if others had experienced this unsatisfactory feeling following supposed "achievement." And, what did you do afterward? Did you keep pursuing your work/passion project? Or did you let it go when it wasn't fulfilling? If you let it go, how did that feel and what happened afterward?

Very sorry for going so long!

Gassho
SatToday/LAH

[Rich]

Am approaching 75 and continue to work, play and achieve. But am not so attached to the results and often things turn out out differently than planned. It’s all good. Just believe in youself 100% . Also some time doing nothing is ok

Sat/lah


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[Jakuden]

This is such a good question ! As Rich said, hold the attachment to your former concept of success lightly: as you are discovering, there is nothing there that’s real to be held. But it is possible to find great joy in the incredible success you have achieved in being alive as a human being and living through each moment, including this one right now reading this. Thank you for your practice, which benefits all [emoji120] And congratulations on your publication… it is still important to get up from the cushion and benefit all beings, as you are doing.[emoji4]

Gassho
Jakuden
SatToday


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[Prashanth]

If you are publishing, you are communicating the ongoing outcome of your knowledge-pursuit.
If this is the only purpose, what better goal can there be?
As a publisher (and an ex-researcher) I can see the "currency-value" of a publication, but I also meet many people who genuinely work in the pursuit of knowledge, and it is such a joy and inspiration to see and work with them no matter whether the publication "makes it". For me, every day I work with such people is a worthy substitute to all the disappointments I have with my own uneventful pursuits.

Such a pursuit of knowledge could be compatible with everything we try to follow here.

Just my 2 grains.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho.

Sat.

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[Kokuu]

Hi Noz

I was/am similar to you in achieving graduate and postgraduate degrees and then being successful as an academic scientist, although that was cut short by illness. Anyway, even though I didn't practice then, I found that the excitement of publication was a diminishing return.

Similarly, I have more recently written and published haiku poems, and the gloss of being published wore off after a while. It is often usual to experience somewhat the same with regards to Zen practice.

I can imagine that the dropping away of achievement seems worrying, as you wonder how you are going to motivate yourself to your career. However, as an alternative to relying on the sense of achievement as a dopamine hit, instead maybe consider connecting to what drove you to choose your particular field in the first place.

Was it just to achieve? I am betting there was a deeper love and passion there.

When I write haiku now, it is for the joy of it rather than to publish. Likewise, my Zen practice exists because I like sitting and studying dharma. There does not have to be any achievement there. If Jundo disrobed me tomorrow, I cannot say I wouldn't be disappointed, but I would continue practicing pretty much the same. It is not done to achieve.

Anyway, long story short, I think that attainment can be an unhealthy reason to pursue things, although not bad in and of itself. Connecting to a deeper motivation can, in my experience, feel less tenuous, although even that may be subject to ups and downs.

Apologies for length.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday/lah-

[Nengei]

Please excuse any unintended appearance that I am trying to teach or explain anything. I am a novice priest, and have no depth of knowledge or qualifications for teaching Zen.

For me, there is frequently a big let-down at the conclusion of a project. I put myself into my work strongly and emotionally, and there may be recognition and even accolades at the end. But there is a big hole where what was so intense in my world is now gone. This improved for me when I started having multiple projects in progress, and my brain is always reading out for the next one. It may be because what I really love is the process, the doing, and when that is over I am a little lost.

I recognize your first paragraph, and in fact, I could have written it. That thing you are looking for, which inward you thinks will come from that next degree, that next success, or that job... not so much. What you are seeking comes from within, finding your self-respect, self-value, and peace with who you are.

Gassho,
遜道念芸 Nengei
Sat today. LAH.

[Bion]

Unsatisfactory nature of career achievement

I was a man with huge dreams of success. I worked hard for it, sacrificed and suffered for that goal and then one day I saw the bigger picture, once zazen and dharma finally soaked up my bones and accomplishments started to look less and less like accomplishments.
Professionally I have no huge aspirations nowadays, but to make it from one month to the other with bills paid, food in the fridge, spare time to spend on things that truly matter and if anything I am just continuously grateful for the wonderful people who hire me and spend their hard earned money on my work, allowing me to earn a living.
My barometer for success has changed, and I measure it now in kind words said to people, in smiles I can put on others’ faces, in memories I can create for others, in time offered for the benefit of others and in the ease of my sleep at night. None of that was a thing when I was chasing success. Not a day goes by that I don’t feel grateful for becoming this person and not needing to feel validated by anyone. Success, in the broadly known sense, is absolutely not a guarantee for a good life and a peaceful mind.

Sorry for the length.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Shonin Risa Bear]

There is nowhere to stand that is not in some sense everywhere (as well as also nowhere). So what is to be achieved?

The whole universe in all ten directions is a mendicant monk’s Eye.

-- Changsha Zhenlang, quoted by Dogen

gassho
doyu shonin, some sit, some lah

[Jundo]

Please recall that Zen and Buddhism are not about having no goals whatsoever.

The Buddha and Dogen were achievers, with projects and Sangha to build, teachings to develop and offer. They did not just sit around on their rumps.

However, in this wise-crazy Zen way, we can learn to drop THOROUGHLY all goals and need for change and attaining AND SIMULTANEOUSLY retain (without overly clutching) and work hard and diligently toward our goals and projects to work improvements ALL AT ONCE ... as if encountering the world both ways at once as one. Goals and goals thoroughly dropped in the same moment!

There is nothing lacking, no work to be done, nothing in need of solving, not one thing more in need of achieving AND holes to fill, work to be done, problems to solve, targets to achieve ALL AS TWO FACES OF THE SAME NO SIDED COIN. Peace does not require passivity. Peace can be known even as we actively strive and energetically struggle to deal with all life's broken pieces. Be at peace when getting a gold star, be at peace when not getting a gold star ... do not be addicted and dependent on getting gold stars ... but, at the same time, no reason not to work hard and pick up some meaningful gold stars.

Not every project need give one a profound sense of achievement (maybe a mild sense of relief is enough for some), but there is nothing wrong with taking joy in some that are meaningful to you. (I am sure that Dogen felt some joy the day that the doors finally opened on his Eiheiji monastery after years of planning.)

So, work your plan, write your books, build your towers, invent your inventions ... but clutch lightly to each, knowing that some will not work out, some will, some will be attained and some will flop in the dirt. You can retain your desire for achievements, but in moderation, without being tied up in them. At the same time, know that there is absolutely nothing done or in need of doing, not in the least, not even one drop ... even as you do and keep pushing on! Reaching the top of the mountain, falling down the mountain, all the same Buddha mountain. Nonetheless, we can continue walking up the mountain, enjoying the scenery along the way, each step by step its own arrival.

Capiche?

Gassho, Jundo
STLah

Sorry to run long

PS -

Am approaching 75 and continue to work, play and achieve. But am not so attached to the results and often things turn out out differently than planned. It’s all good. Just believe in youself 100% . Also some time doing nothing is ok

This advice comes from an old Zen fellow who still plays hockey at age 75! That's him here, to the right of the goalie. Talk about a man with "goals"

65_tier_2_large.JPG

[Ugrok]

Hi !

Interesting question, as i was (and still am) in the exact same position. When i did my thesis, i struggled to get it to the end. I thought "when this will be done, all will be okay". It wasn't ! Then it was all about getting the tenure position at the university. I thought, once i'm there, i'll be forever okay. Well, no.

I practiced zazen going through all this career stuff, and i also saw colleagues whose whole life is about being published, again and again, striving for "success", and being a bit bitter because they are not satisfied.

Nowadays i changed my perspective a lot. My job, teaching, writing scientific articles, being published, etc., is just A GAME. I do it BECAUSE IT'S FUN TO DO IT WHEN I DO IT. And that's all. I begin to really drop all ideas of success, of being well known, of being better than my colleagues. It's hard because the academic system wants you to perform this way. But now that i have a job in which i can't be fired, i just try to have fun with it and not think about "what good is it for", "what will it bring to my career", etc. It's all pointless ; what matters is what you do when you do it ; and if you have fun doing it, you will produce good stuff anyway and be a nice person to be around.

I would advise listening to the conference by Grothendieck about research, fun and what the system does to it. He was a genius mathematician who chose to retire from research (which is a bit sad) but he makes a few interesting points about the topic of this discussion. I only have the link in french, maybe you can find it with subtitles.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZW9JpZXwGXc&ab_channel=norecess

My 2 universitary cents,

Gassho,
Uggy
Sat today
LAH

[Ryumon]

When the universe collapses, none of this will matter. However, until then, it will. Depending on your work, you may be able to help other grow and learn, or your work may only have a minor effect in a huge company. I understand the desire of researchers to discover things that can change the world, but they are often in an environment where actual time for discoveries is limited. I know a scientist who spends so much time writing grants that there isn't a lot to do real science.

I've had thoughts of writing a novel or six, but every now and then I realize that there are so many books out there, that it's rare that any book makes a difference. So I get on with my daily grind, trying to ensure that, one day, I will have enough money to retire.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

[Rich]

Thanks Jundo. Haven’t seen that pic in a long time

Sat/lah


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[Bion]

When the universe collapses, none of this will matter. However, until then, it will. Depending on your work, you may be able to help other grow and learn, or your work may only have a minor effect in a huge company. I understand the desire of researchers to discover things that can change the world, but they are often in an environment where actual time for discoveries is limited. I know a scientist who spends so much time writing grants that there isn't a lot to do real science.

I've had thoughts of writing a novel or six, but every now and then I realize that there are so many books out there, that it's rare that any book makes a difference. So I get on with my daily grind, trying to ensure that, one day, I will have enough money to retire.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

Fun fact: the Universe will not collapse, but rather expand forever. [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Kokuu]

Fun fact: the Universe will not collapse, but rather expand forever.

Some physicists beg to differ...

https://www.sciencealert.com/the-universe-could-start-shrinking-remarkably-soon

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Bion]

Unsatisfactory nature of career achievement

Some physicists beg to differ...

https://www.sciencealert.com/the-universe-could-start-shrinking-remarkably-soon

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

Yeah, and some say the opposite. Saw DeGrasse Tyson explain this the other day and he’s in the expand forever team. I however care very little though I can imagine more than a few people losing sleep over the fate of everything ..[emoji1]

[emoji1374] Sat Today