Sitting with depression.

[Meiun]

Dear Sangha,

Apologies in advance if this topic should be posted in a particular place, I did try to search and couldn't find anything that matched so if there is an appropriate place I couldn't find please redirect me...

I have really been struggling to maintain any clear awareness for the past couple of weeks in my sitting, unable to keep my eyes open and feeling as if I'm just drifiting and dreaming my meditation away.

I am confident that this will change given time and accept it for what it is but I wondered if anyone else experiences this and what you may have tried to bring back some focus and clarity.

Gassho

Mike

[Jundo]

Hi Mike,

As a former 15 year or so depressed person (teens into mid 20s), I will say that Zen saved me these ways particularly:

-1- Even when having dark thoughts, I came to see them as passing theatre even when occurring, a passing phenomenon of the mind, thus not to be overly bought into or believed. They too would pass. Don't buy into emotional thoughts like that, and what they are selling for a time, as anything more than a passing fancy.

-2- I found the still, still peaceful and beautiful place at the eye of the storm. This is the place of equanimity and wholeness at the heart of this and that, up and down.

-3- I found greater ability to be aware of, and to direct and control the mind, like the sailor of a sailboat in a storm.

That was enough.

We have some other folks around here who wrestle with depression from time to time, and who can comment.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Koushi]

Hello Mike,

I've lived with depression most of my life—and am currently in the beginning stages of SAD (they really should think about this acronym a bit IMO lol). What you're describing is all too familiar and relatable.

struggling to maintain any clear awareness for the past couple of weeks in my sitting, unable to keep my eyes open and feeling as if I'm just drifiting and dreaming my meditation away.

In my opinion and experience, we do the best we can, here. During particularly down periods, sometimes all I can do is sit on the cushion—as it seems the rest of the session itself gets carried by stormy weather, as Jundo so aptly put it. Sometimes realizing the eye of the storm for a couple of moments and drift off again. It is a part of things, too; however, try not to constantly check if you're still drifting and dreaming away, either. The more we give attention to something, the more we find it.

I am confident that this will change given time and accept it for what it is

Again, from my experience, it will. But it does you well not to put any undue pressure on yourself or your sitting during these times. Don't particularly worry if your zazen is good or bad or dreamy—just try to sit. (Consistency helps me, most of all. Even if it's a week of slogging to the cushion and sitting straight—it's better than not sitting at all).

Over time, it does get easier(ish) to accept and allow things to be as they are, even the depressed thoughts and feelings. They're as temporary as the rest, even if a bit like a weighted blanket: same, but a bit heavy.

Sorry for running long,

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH

[bakera3312]

Hi Mike,

As somebody who had to deal with a pretty intense personal issue lately I understand getting lost sometimes when we're setting. I just wanted to send this message in solidarity.

In deep gassho

Tony,

[Jundo]

We just sit sometimes with the fact that it is miserable and we cannot sit. When we are too miserable to sit, and need to quit sitting, we accept that fact too.

It is like being in a rain storm, but with faith that the rain is only passing weather. The sky is the same sky, clear or clouds.

(By the way, nothing wrong ... and everything right ... with Zen practice combined with seeking all medical and psychological help for depression).

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Shi]

Fo me I was just in the hospital for one week but I am recovering [emoji3590]*🩹. It’s true for me medication is something I have had to deal with over the years. This has at times interfered with my ability to do zazen and I have needed refreshers with Jundo’s videos. I am okay with relearning what I can’t remember when I need to try and do Shikantaza and lessons are good for me.
Gassho
sat/ lah


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[Meian]

Hi Mike,

I've lived with recurring depression for a couple decades. Sometimes I sense it coming, other times the shadow tails me a while before I realize it's on me. Recurring Major Depressive Disorder is my official label -- I just call it a dance of outwitting my own mind and biochemistry.

I have experienced a lot of what you mention in zazen with depression. Over years I've learned not to fight what happens to me (too much). I liken depression (for me) to mentally swimming through mud. It's amazing how exhausting and debilitating this illness can be.

Yet for me, this is where I have found some relief in Zen at times. I like how Jundo put it: "I found the still, still peaceful and beautiful place at the eye of the storm. This is the place of equanimity and wholeness at the heart of this and that, up and down." It was not something I had to 'do', but just be. I could let go of all the demands and mental static and noise, the dark clouds. Everything could move as fast or slow as it needed to, I'd just sit there as it all whirled around me. Zen was -- and is -- the stillpoint in the chaos and noise of modern life.

As for drifting off -- yes, that happens to me. I don't have a fix for that. But I figure that if I fall asleep or blank out, it's because my mind/body needed to rest. I live with daily chronic fatigue and pain, so I've learned to listen to this. If I fall asleep during Zazen, I'll wake up feeling better for it.

As Jundo said, you're definitely not alone here. Much wisdom and experience in what others have shared already.

Gassho2, meian stlh

[Kokuu]

Struggling to maintain any clear awareness for the past couple of weeks in my sitting, unable to keep my eyes open and feeling as if I'm just drifiting and dreaming my meditation away.

I think that Koushi and Meian offer good advice here. Getting to the cushion is the most important thing (although if you really cannot do that, there is no judgement either) and if you just sit and drift for the moment that is not a problem. We sit to rest in the experience of how things are, and if things are drifty and dreamy, that is how they are.

As Meian says, if you feel like you need to sleep, go do that instead.

In my opinion and experience, we do the best we can, here. During particularly down periods, sometimes all I can do is sit on the cushion—as it seems the rest of the session itself gets carried by stormy weather, as Jundo so aptly put it. Sometimes realizing the eye of the storm for a couple of moments and drift off again. It is a part of things, too; however, try not to constantly check if you're still drifting and dreaming away, either. The more we give attention to something, the more we find it.

As for drifting off -- yes, that happens to me. I don't have a fix for that. But I figure that if I fall asleep or blank out, it's because my mind/body needed to rest. I live with daily chronic fatigue and pain, so I've learned to listen to this. If I fall asleep during Zazen, I'll wake up feeling better for it.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Prashanth]

Lots of good advice here (bookmarked [emoji3581]).
All I can say is:

When I sit with depressive thoughts, I always come out with less of them.

When I cannot sit and its getting too much, I don't. I just do samu or go for a really long walk (4-5kms), because action sometimes is a better response to such thoughts. I never force myself to sit.

But I am mindful that I do not sit "in depression". Its either "with" it or "despite" it.

Gassho.

sorry to run long.




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[Koushi]

But I am mindful that I do not sit "in depression". Its either "with" it or "despite" it.

This is a good distinction to make, Prashanth! When talking about issues/conditions such as these, I try to refrain from saying I'm "suffering from," for example. It's a slight change to say "living with" or "experiencing"—but words do matter when it comes to self-talk

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH

[Rich]

I question and examine everything. That’s how i wake up from delusions. How i get to a place of not knowing.

Sat/lah


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[Tom A.]

Sitting with depression.

To deeply see that emotions and thoughts are a passing show as Jundo said is very helpful. Something as simple as a wise person that you look up to like Jundo tell you to “stop thinking that way” is very, very powerful. Don’t underestimate it.

I think Zazen and zen practice naturally cultivates unconditional self acceptance, unconditional other acceptance and unconditional life acceptance. We all have good or bad qualities that can be criticized but never our ultimate worth or the other person’s ultimate worth or life’s ultimate worth.

If you rate your being, your personality, your essence, your totality on your success or failure or on the opinions of others, you’ll likely vacillate between two extremes over and over: “I succeeded! I’m such a great person!” Or “I screwed up! I’m a terrible person!” On the other hand, If you rate your being, your personality, your essence, your totality on a deep acceptance of yourself, your existence, and your fallibility you’ll have a constant realistic attitude of “I have many good and bad traits, let me judge them as such, If I mess up it sucks but I’ll get through it.” To call yourself worthless is silly nonsense.

I don’t try to be perfect but to be average. Think of all of the hobbies, skills, and knowledge out there. Some of us are great at a lot of things, some of us are pretty terrible at a lot of things. All of us suck pretty badly at most things most of the time. We are only good at so few things, and not very good if we think about it. Consider the greatest pianist you personally know. They are probably pretty good. A concert pianist is orders of magnitude better than that and even they make mistakes from time to time. A concert pianist has to not only be able to sight read by age five and be proficient by their teens, they have to memorize every note before a recital, learn a repertoire of complex musical pieces dissecting every note to understand the composer’s ideas and intentions, expand on those ideas year by year, enter grueling competitions to have every note judged, and unlike in sports, they have to improve their playing as they age. In other words, concert pianists are in another league and yet there are average and above average concert pianists. Everything’s like that. I’m sorry to say but it is hard to strive to be average in most things, even when above average in other ways. If it’s so hard to be average and yet we strive for perfection and make unrealistic demands and judgments of ourselves and others,then no wonder we’re unhappy.

I fight my depression by remembering that I am always doing four things all of the time: perceiving, emoting, thinking, and behaving. There is never just one of them because any one of them is constantly being effected by the other three.

If I’m perceiving something unpleasant, I’ll have unpleasant emotions thus my thoughts will tend to be unpleasant, unrealistic and distorted and I may try to alleviate all of that by eating Cheetos on the couch all day thus beginning a downward cycle.

If I’m having unpleasant, unrealistic and distorted thoughts but choose to counter them with realistic, validating and rational thoughts, I’ll feel better, might exercise thus beginning an upward cycle.

Changing the content of any perception or emotion or thought or behavior changes the other three. Knowing that I can choose to have direct control over my thoughts, beliefs, actions and indirect control over perception and emotion is liberating.

Sorry for length

Gassho
Tom

Sat


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[Meiun]

Thank you Jundo and thank you all for your observations. Very much appreciated



Mike

[Meian]

When talking about issues/conditions such as these, I try to refrain from saying I'm "suffering from," for example. It's a slight change to say "living with" or "experiencing"—but words do matter when it comes to self-talk

Gassho2
--stlh--

[Tom A.]

Dear Sangha,

Apologies in advance if this topic should be posted in a particular place, I did try to search and couldn't find anything that matched so if there is an appropriate place I couldn't find please redirect me...

I have really been struggling to maintain any clear awareness for the past couple of weeks in my sitting, unable to keep my eyes open and feeling as if I'm just drifiting and dreaming my meditation away.

I am confident that this will change given time and accept it for what it is but I wondered if anyone else experiences this and what you may have tried to bring back some focus and clarity.

Gassho

Mike

Sorry to be so noisy but I am passionate about this topic. This is probably one of the most helpful things I have ever learned. It is effective for me to make a list of things I have complete control over vs a list of things I have no control over. Then take the things I don’t have control over and find out what I do have control over that might effect those things I don’t have control over and write those down.

For example, incomplete control: feeling tired at work. Complete control: acceptance and being effective despite being tired.

Practically, I can derive all of these actions from “feeling tired at work”:

-Go to bed and wake up at a reasonable time.

-Breathing exercises to wake up and less caffeine for less of a crash and better sleep.

-Eat healthier.

-Exercise regularly.

-Save alcohol for the weekend.

Gassho,

Tom

Sat




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