Any comments?

[jcsuperstar]

Re: Any comments?

i'm still not with you that being frustrated can go hand in hand w/ comtentment.

I am going to drop in the old Zen teachers cop out: Keep sitting until you do taste this (and then keep sitting more).

i'll do that but i'll ask this one piece of advice then.
how do i just sit, or let open the hand of thought, if i'm holding tightly to the thing that is causing me frustration?

see, as it is now, if i'm frustrated ,say about the phone bill, then i deside to go sit, i let go of the phone bill. once i let go of the phone bill i'm not frustrated.

[Tb]

Re: Any comments?

PS- In checking something for this, I came upon a nice Haiku, not inappropriate:

a frog farting -
this too is the
voice of Buddha

Hi.

Where does the wind come from? :lol: :wink:

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Tb]

Re: Any comments?

very interesting article. however, my eyes tend to glaze over when traditions start to critique other traditions. what's the point? you're not gonna change any minds. in addition, the whole idea of jhanas seems as mythical as the idea of enlightenment.

what do you think jedi master?
peace
craig

Hi.

Don't separate, and pay attention to the precepts ( no disparaging, no selfpraise, etc.)

And for the masterpart, anyone calling me master (higher/better than anyone else) I'll beat with a dried shitstick!
I may be a jedi, but i'm still just a part of the force, as are you.
But dont separate.

May the force be with you
Tb

[Aswini]

Re: Any comments?

i have a deep respect for the force and the jedi.

http://jedisanctuary.org/pages/traits/meditate.htm

........if only i could train to be one. Actually i think George Lucas base Yoda on a Zen Master or something like that.

[Shui_Di]

Re: Any comments?

Hi Jundo, and JC...

I just want to give my opinion....?

i'm still not with you that being frustrated can go hand in hand w/ comtentment.

I am going to drop in the old Zen teachers cop out: Keep sitting until you do taste this (and then keep sitting more).

i'll do that but i'll ask this one piece of advice then.
how do i just sit, or let open the hand of thought, if i'm holding tightly to the thing that is causing me frustration?

see, as it is now, if i'm frustrated ,say about the phone bill, then i deside to go sit, i let go of the phone bill. once i let go of the phone bill i'm not frustrated.

contentment will come if you get what you like.

frustration will come if you get what you dislike.

But if we drop "like" or "dislike", then frustration and contentment will no longer exist

just like the light and the shadow, contentment and frustration create each other.

if you attach to the light, then darkness will make you suffer. but if you don't attach to the light, darkness will not make you suffer.

When there is no light, everything will be 100% dark. And without the light, the darkness cannot be call as darkness. And without darkness, the light cannot be called as light.

Zen is beyond content or frustration.

Frustration and contentment just like the wave of the sea. Sometimes up sometimes down. But if we just let it go, and back to our original form that is the water. Up and Down is nothing.

Just Flow...

Gassho, Shuidi / Mujo

[Jundo]

Re: Any comments?

Man, Mujo Shui Di,

You never fail to wow me! 20 years old, and you seem to know what many of us old guys are still wrestling with!

If there is rebirth, you might be old Hui Neng himself!

i'll do that but i'll ask this one piece of advice then.
how do i just sit, or let open the hand of thought, if i'm holding tightly to the thing that is causing me frustration?

see, as it is now, if i'm frustrated ,say about the phone bill, then i deside to go sit, i let go of the phone bill. once i let go of the phone bill i'm not frustrated.

That's right. If phone bill comes to mind during Zazen, let it go ... just sit. If phone bill comes back during Zazen, let it go again ... just sit. Find that silent place between phones' ringing ... 10,000 times and 10,000 times again. If phone bill will not leave some days ... just sit with that. Sound of phone ringing is Buddha!

I put this a bit to the test today, after our discussion here. Nothing serious happened, but I encountered two computer crashes, a minor catastrophe at work, and many red lights as I was late to pick Leon up at school. All very annoying, very FRUSTRATING! ERRRRRR!

But they weren't too!

If one can also taste that "Empty" place where there are no red lights to stop us, no stopping or going (no computers to crash or not to crash too) ...

So, the "frustration" now is simply not the same as "frustration" before Buddhist Practice. Now, it is just like a silly dance, life's up and downs like Shui Di's sea. Sea waves sound like this: ERRRRR!

Gassho, Jundo

[Jundo]

Re: Any comments?

Hi,

I gave the talk today on the "sit-a-long" about what we were discussing here.

But I basically repeated and rehashed a lot of what I said above, so if your listen to it ... you might find it kinda FRUSTRATING! :twisted:

http://blog.beliefnet.com/treeleafzen/2 ... fo-29.html

Gassho, J

[John]

Re: Any comments?

Interesting discussion. I was just reading Jack Kornfield book "The Wise Heart" and he talks a lot about jhanas in one of the chapters. I was beginning to think I was missing out on the states of rapture he describes. He seems to believe they are a way of purification, but at the end of the chapter he quotes Ajahn Chah "When blissful and extraordinary states arise from your meditation, use them but do not cling to them." And he says himself "the real blessing appears when we can bring the experiences of the transcendental to illuminate the miracle of the ordinary."

Gassho,
John

[Tb]

Re: Any comments?

Interesting discussion. I was just reading Jack Kornfield book "The Wise Heart" and he talks a lot about jhanas in one of the chapters. I was beginning to think I was missing out on the states of rapture he describes. He seems to believe they are a way of purification, but at the end of the chapter he quotes Ajahn Chah "When blissful and extraordinary states arise from your meditation, use them but do not cling to them." And he says himself "the real blessing appears when we can bring the experiences of the transcendental to illuminate the miracle of the ordinary."

Gassho,
John

Hi.
Hey, thats on my table too...
funny world sometimes..
How do you find it?
I haven't gotten that far in it, but it seems ok, maybe something for the bookcircle i'm holding here in Tibro?...

Mtfbwy
Fugen (still can't decide on name to put here, but a name is a name is a name, or as the famous arne anka said: a beer is a beer is a beer)

[Tb]

Re: Any comments?

i have a deep respect for the force and the jedi.

http://jedisanctuary.org/pages/traits/meditate.htm

........if only i could train to be one. Actually i think George Lucas base Yoda on a Zen Master or something like that.

Hi.

Yes, i was told once that he stated in one of the books about star wars, that he did base them on something similar.
And for the record, i was wondering if my dharmaname would be Yoda, whatever that means in japanese...

Mtfbwy
Tb

[chicanobudista]

Re: Any comments?

one can not be frustrated and content at the same time.

OH YES YOU MOST CERTAINLY CAN!!

And if you do not know that you can, that nothing ever lacks, something vital is lacking in one's practice

From a decisively non-Buddhist take, you can be frustrated and content at the same time. Ask a musician or an athlete when they hone their craft. When I used to play tennis or practice with my guitar. I would feel frustrated for not keeping the ball on a certain height or not attaining that proper chord change, but....I felt content for being alive and being here & now to feel moment. When I hit the ball with the racket or strummed the chords with my finger nails, you feel that moment. Frustration and contentment in one spot. It's a ...strange state for lack of a better phrase, but yes can have both at the same time. Of course, this is not zazen...but.... :mrgreen:

[Jundo]

Re: Any comments?

From a decisively non-Buddhist take, you can be frustrated and content at the same time. Ask a musician or an athlete when they hone their craft. When I used to play tennis or practice with my guitar.

Hi,

I am not sure that is what I mean ... if what you mean is just contentment at some things, and frustration at various other things running through our minds, separately but in parallel (an "its not all bad" attitude). That's not the meaning. Nor is it "making lemonade when handed lemons" or the like.

I am speaking of a deep, abiding, to-the-marrow, Contentment with a world/life that is sometimes contentment (small c) sometimes frustration. A Contentment that washes up both contentment and frustration.

Where does that arise from?

I believe from the tasting, (as 'not two') of the 'sameness & absolute' and 'self no self' and 'thinking nothinking=nonthinking' perspective that is at the heart of Shikantaza. For example, even as my self (small s) bumps up and collides with all the other 'stuff' of the world ... I taste a reality by which self-stuff is dropped away. The result is a kind of Peace beyond peace or friction (in fact, it is a being at Peace with peace or friction).

For example, part of me (on Channel 1) goes into "Life's Ice Cream Store" and wants chocolate, but life gives me lemon. The self is discontent with that, rather disappointed or even sad. But (on Channel 2) "dropping all likes and dislikes" (even dropping all thought of me, ice cream, chocolate and lemon), there is an abiding stillness. BOTH experiences exist at once, and for that reason the experience of life on (Channel 1), although still "frustrating", is NOT THE SAME experience of (Channel 1) that would be experienced by me if (Channel 2) were not also simultaneously present.

Get what I mean?

I am very much looking forward to Suzuki Roshi's book on 'sameness and absolute', our next book club selection ...

viewtopic.php?f=1&t=1266

Gassho, Jundo

[chicanobudista]

Re: Any comments?

Get what I mean?

I'll just sit.

I am very much looking forward to Suzuki Roshi's book on 'sameness and absolute', our next book club selection

Me too!

[John]

Re: Any comments?

Hi.
Hey, thats on my table too...
funny world sometimes..
How do you find it?

Hi Fugen,

Hey, I see you are all using Japanese names now -- I'll have to start using mine! I think Jack Kornfield is good when it comes to dealing with emotional issues. Sometimes I think that is a bit lacking in Zen. Many of the great Zen masters who were enlightened beings and came to America seemed to also have a lot of emotional problems that made them go off the rails into alcoholism etc.

Saying that, I think he gets a bit too mystical sometimes, for me anyway, and I don't like the visualisation practices. Overall I think I prefer the more down-to-earth Zen approach ,

Gassho,
Doshin (John)

[Tb]

Re: Any comments?

Hi.
Hey, thats on my table too...
funny world sometimes..
How do you find it?

Hi Fugen,

Hey, I see you are all using Japanese names now -- I'll have to start using mine!

Hi.
A name is a name is a name. good for some puposes.
Having troubles about what to use as my signature, Tb is my "Name", Fugen is what "I am"...
Many here know me as Tb, it might get confusing...

I think Jack Kornfield is good when it comes to dealing with emotional issues. Sometimes I think that is a bit lacking in Zen. Many of the great Zen masters who were enlightened beings and came to America seemed to also have a lot of emotional problems that made them go off the rails into alcoholism etc.

Saying that, I think he gets a bit too mystical sometimes, for me anyway, and I don't like the visualisation practices. Overall I think I prefer the more down-to-earth Zen approach ,

Gassho,
Doshin (John)

Ok. just getting in to it so...
And i think one of the issues of brad warners new book is about "zenmasters falling astray", at least that what i heard...


mtfbwy
Tb