pins and needles

[Borsuk]

Re: pins and needles

I'm not sure if this was any help to you...

It definately helps to hear from you, Kelly. Thanks everyone for the suggestions and experiences.

I may try a zabuton, or a blanket like Kelly.

Pins and needles aren't because you are not stretched, it is because something is cutting off circulation (calf pressing against thigh, for example).

I think you're partly right, Rowan, but on the other hand I think that if I was more flexible my foot wouldn't be pushed so hard down onto my thigh in the half-lotus. With a more flexible groin perhaps my knees would sit on the floor more easily and the raised foot rest without pressure... But in any case, it would be good to do some specifically Zazen related stretches. Does anyone know any good ones or where we can find some pics and explanations?

I reckon I'm gonna stick with the half-lotus for a bit and see what happens. However, all those who have said to listen to my body I think have a good point so today during sitting I swapped the raised leg half-way through and avoided the pins and needles...

So great to have a sangha to discuss these things with

Gassho,
David

[Jinho]

Re: pins and needles

Hi,

There was a topic on stretching, Maybe somebody knows where it is on Treeeleaf?

gassho
rowan

I'm not sure if this was any help to you...

It definately helps to hear from you, Kelly. Thanks everyone for the suggestions and experiences.

I may try a zabuton, or a blanket like Kelly.

Pins and needles aren't because you are not stretched, it is because something is cutting off circulation (calf pressing against thigh, for example).

I think you're partly right, Rowan, but on the other hand I think that if I was more flexible my foot wouldn't be pushed so hard down onto my thigh in the half-lotus. With a more flexible groin perhaps my knees would sit on the floor more easily and the raised foot rest without pressure... But in any case, it would be good to do some specifically Zazen related stretches. Does anyone know any good ones or where we can find some pics and explanations?

I reckon I'm gonna stick with the half-lotus for a bit and see what happens. However, all those who have said to listen to my body I think have a good point so today during sitting I swapped the raised leg half-way through and avoided the pins and needles...

So great to have a sangha to discuss these things with

Gassho,
David

[disastermouse]

Re: pins and needles

I put up with this for years before finally just buying a seiza bench. Now my legs do not go numb and I can sit longer than 25 minutes.

[KellyRok]

Re: pins and needles

Hello David and all,

Someone, posted this link a while back. It has some really good stretches (in my humble opinion) for sitting zazen. I hope they help you get limbered up. When you click on the link, scroll down the page - it has instructions and pictures.

http://zenmontpellier.site.voila.fr/eng/lotus/lotuseng.html

Gassho,
Kelly/Jinmei

[Juko]

Re: pins and needles

Hi everybody. I stumbled across this yesterday, on the Flor de Nopal Sangha website (gracias a Chicanobudista ). It is about improving flexibility to get into the lotus position - it gets a little wild at the end, but I really found the basic premise helpful:


https://<div class="videocontainer w... </a> </div>

Gassho, Juko (Tina)

[Jundo]

Re: pins and needles

Thank you, Tina, that video is wonderful. I can manage the Full Lotus ... it is the "Wide Angle Forward Bend" that might be the problem! And I will forget the Full Lotus Head Stand at the end!

I have been recommending for some time that folks who wish to attempt the Lotus Posture consult with a talented Yoga instructor in their community. Frankly, most of the good Yoga instructors I have encountered teach the posture better than almost any Japanese Zen monk I have run across (except the ones who do Yoga!), as their instructions tend to be just "cross the legs, straighten the back, chin in, good!".

Let me add that "pins and needles" sensation may be caused, not only by cutting off circulation, but by pressure on the leg nerves. That doesn't change the feeling or the recommended solutions, but just for your reference.

http://sanrow1948.spaces.live.com/blog/ ... !573.entry

I may do the "sit-a-long" later today, and you will get to see my version of the Full Lotus. Not a pretty thing. You see, most Asians who do the Full Lotus tend to be skinny little Yogis and thin Zen Monks ... not fat Americans with Thunder Thighs. Mine looks kinds like this pose by one of my favorite Hindu Gods, the elephantine Ganesha ...



As I get older, and the budding arthritis in my knees and ankles kicks in (more on rainy days), I spend most of my time sitting Burmese or Half Lotus. To stay in shape, I try to stay in Full Lotus for a full sitting every few days. Obviously, I feel that the Full Lotus is a beneficial position for many people for Zazen, but not indispensible. I recommend the Burmese for most people.



Gassho, Jundo

I will be posting on another thread shortly about the place of the Lotus Posture in Zen Practice.

[Borsuk]

Re: pins and needles

Thanks for the excellent info! I'll have fun checking it out.

Full-lotus head stand?! Piece of cake... :lol:

Gassho,
David

[Tb]

Re: pins and needles

Hi.

Can you stand on your head?


- Cheshire Cat, alice in wonderland

Mtfbwy
Fugen

[chicanobudista]

Re: pins and needles

Hi everybody. I stumbled across this yesterday, on the Flor de Nopal Sangha website (gracias a Chicanobudista ).

You are welcomed!

...Of course, as I told our group, once I hear "This is Takoko our senior..." at 0:05 and see that's is a petite slim fit 20-something woman....I knew I had to go step by step veedddddyyy slowly. I am still working on the seiza bench. :mrgreen:

Gassho....

[Juko]

Re: pins and needles

Thank you, Tina, that video is wonderful. I can manage the Full Lotus ... it is the "Wide Angle Forward Bend" that might be the problem! And I will forget the Full Lotus Head Stand at the end!

Awww, come on, can't we practice Zazen standing on our heads ? I can get the "wide angle forward bend", but alas, even though I am almost freakishly flexible, I can only manage a half lotus, and I have to admit it still looks kind of wilted :lol: , so I stick to Burmese.

Gassho, Juko

[chicanobudista]

Re: pins and needles

BTW....that youtube group has more videos worth looking. I know Jundo wasn't too crazy about their ?ry?ki vid. :mrgreen:

[Bansho]

Re: pins and needles

Hi,

You may want to try this against pins & needles - I think these guys may really be onto something:



Could be a good place for a Sit-A-Long too, huh? (hint, hint... )

Gassho
Bansho

[Jundo]

Re: pins and needles

Hi,

You may want to try this against pins & needles - I think these guys may really be onto something:

Could be a good place for a Sit-A-Long too, huh? (hint, hint... )

Gassho
Bansho

This is not enough?

http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/2008/06 ... redux.html

[Bansho]

Re: pins and needles

This is not enough?

http://treeleafzen.blogspot.com/2008/06 ... redux.html

Ha! OK, OK, I forgot about that one.

Gassho
Bansho

[Jundo]

Re: pins and needles

Found something I was looking for ...

My friend, Rev. Nonin Chowaney, of the Nebraska Zen Center, posted this very helpful message awhile back ...

There are many ways to sit zazen: full-lotus, half-lotus, quarter-lotus (with foot on calf), burmese (with both feet on the floor), seiza (Japanese kneeling posture) with the zafu on it's side, seiza on two zafus (one on top of the others), seiza on a bench, and sitting in a chair (this is frequently necessary for those who have injured themselves or with joint replacements). Also, some people with severe physical problems or illness sit zazen lying down.

I recommend to all beginners that they sit as close to full lotus posture as they can for as long as they can. I also suggest that they sit somewhere between wimp and macho. Sit until it becomes uncomfortable, and then sit a few minutes more before you change postures. If you change too soon, you won't stretch out. On the other hand, don't tough it out for so long that you do yourself damage.

Also, learn the difference between soft tissue or muscle pain and nerve pain. Everyone's legs fall asleep from time to time. Sometimes bending forward will take the pressure off the sciatic nerve and the legs will wake up. If your legs are asleep at the end of a sitting and they come back quickly as you stretch them out and get up, I wouldn't worry about it. If they don't and the numbness persists for some time, don't sit the way you have been. You can damage nerves. If you damage 1/8" of a nerve, it can take months to heal.

Anytime you hold the body in a specific position, it will hurt. Just try holding your arm out parallel to the floor for any length of time. Sitting zazen for any length of time will hurt most people, although some can without pain. I have never been very limber, and I sat seiza for three years when I first started while I did exercises and stretched out. Then, I was able to sit burmese style. Eventually I was able to sit quarter-lotus and then half-lotus. I've never been able to sit full-lotus, and as I've aged, I've gone back to quarter lotus. Also, I have a knee problem, and when it flared up severely a couple of years ago, I spent six months sitting in a chair.

Hands palm-to-palm,

Nonin