pins and needles

[Borsuk]

Hi all,

I was hoping to get some advice. Pretty much every time I sit, by the end of the session the foot up on my thigh (I sit in the half lotus) goes numb/falls asleep. It seems that I cut off circulation to the raised foot during sitting and then I have some quite painful pins and needles as the blood re-enters the foot. It happens so often that I am used to it now and don't really think about it, but it has occurred to me that perhaps this is happening because my posture is incorrect. It doesn't matter so much at home, but when I am at the Sunday Zazenkai with the group Kinhin is a bit of a challenge!

Is a numb foot just an unavoidable part of Zazen, or is there something I can do about this? Do others experience the same? Perhaps it's that I still lack flexibility and getting my knees firmly to the floor causes my raised foot to be pushed down hard onto my thigh, thereby cutting off the blood supply...?? Will this stop happening as my body gets more accustomed to the half lotus?

Thanks!

Gassho,
David

[Tb]

Re: pins and needles

Hi.

Try to work/excercise some and stretch.
It's all part of the practice, you will feel some "numbness" as your muscles are'nt used to the sitting, but it will go away.

May the force be with you
Fugen

[Shindo]

Re: pins and needles

Dear David

Good to hear from you again. I will preface my comments by saying I am no expert & other more advanced practitioners will have more to say on the correct zazen posture. However, I do feel able to say something as a health professional.

If you are having pins and needles every time you sit, them your body is trying to commuicate to you (please don't ignore it). If you are attached to sitting in the half lotus you may have to take up stretching exercises, or change the height of your zafu or have more cushions under your zabuton - these adjustments to posture may help keep the blood and nerve signal flowing.

Personally I sit in the burmese position and even that after an hour can cause a dead leg for me . The danger is that if we sit for long periods in these constricted positions that it can lead to damaged knees, hips and a blood clot in the leg (Deep Vein Thrombosis). That is why we need to move every 30-40 minutes to ensure that all the circulation etc has a chance to be restored to a normal level.

Just some thoughts

Kind regards

Jools (Shindo)

[Borsuk]

Re: pins and needles

Thanks for getting back to me guys

I did stretching exercises when I first started sitting but then after a while I thought that just sitting daily would be the best way to gain flexibility. I might start again though.
Maybe I can experiment with cushions and adjustments to the the height of my zafu... The height seems OK, however, because my knees are firmly on the floor.
I do like the half-lotus and would like to perservere with it. I find it very stable and more a more comfortable, apart from this sleeping foot thing... I never sit for longer than 40 minutes (usually 20 - 30 minutes) so the blood isn't cut off for very very long periods at a time...

I've been sitting in the half-lotus for about a year now. Has anybody had the same thing when were relatively new to sitting? Did it go away?

Gassho,
David

[Craig]

Re: pins and needles

posture seems like an ongoing issue for me. probably because i want to do it 'right' i do think there is an element of listening to our bodies when it comes to sitting. i can basically tell if i am just being dull or actually in attention. i sit burmese and find that i sometimes get a sleepy leg or my right calf begins to ache. these come and go and happen less the more i sit. it doesn't seem to be a huge issue.
i have struggled with the best height of zafu for me, which could be your problem. too bad there isn't a zafu store around for us to try them out before buying :lol: my issue is getting my knees to stay on the floor. my legs totally tense up when i focus on sitting up straight which tells me my legs aren't where they should be. when i sit it seems like a constant cycle of relaxing my legs then straightening the back. thoughts on that?
peace
craig

[Myoshin]

Re: pins and needles

I find that when I sit in the half lotus my left foot (the foot that is on the floor) tends to go numb, and I too have the sensation of pins and needles; however this is only happens every once and a while. I am currently useing an improv zafu (one of my pillows with arms), it does the trick most of the time, so I do not know if my sensation of pins and needles is from using that pillow/zafu or just the normal thing.

I am new to sitting so when this first started to occur I dismissed it as nothing but my body not being used to sitting in this fashion for long periods of time (30-40 minutes). I wonder now, after reading this thread, if it is the 'zafu' that I am using.

In any case you are not alone in you pins and needles experience.

Gassho,
Kyle

[Shohei]

Re: pins and needles

Hi David
I sat full lotus despite my pins and needles (and some aches and pains I blamed on 22 years of skiing/snowboarding) for some time (over a year or so) and a few months ago now, I woke up after a longer sit and the back of my knee was giving me some grief. By the end of that day it was clear it wasn't sore muscle... i had done some damage to my knee. Today still i have pain in my left knee when bent beyond a 90 degree angle amplified when i sit. i sit with a taller zafu and always on a zabuton, even still I find I have to sit half and Burmese alternating for longer sits like the Jukai sesshin.

Just Saying its good to push through a bit of discomfort but any thing else is your body telling you something. Best to listen

Gassho, Shohei

[BrianW]

Re: pins and needles

Let me qualify this by saying that I do have to sit in a somewhat unorthodox position as I have arthritis in my neck and a number of years ago I started losing the use of one of my arms. Luckily it went away with physical therapy, but as a result I have to be really careful with sitting. I’ve experimented with every possible posture and the only one that works for me is cross legged with a back support, like the back of a couch with a pillow in the lumbar region. As long as my lumbar region is supported I am OK. I know this sounds like a big deviation from the lotus or Burmese, but it’s the only way I do not get pain in my back and I start getting numbness in my arm.

too bad there isn't a zafu store around for us to try them out before buying :lol: my issue is getting my knees to stay on the floor.

Until I have this opportunity, I have found that a thick blanket works as well as anything. It can be folded a number of times if need be and you can easily adjust how far you sit on it. I have found that if I have a blanket the right height and my legs tucked near my body, I can go for 40 minutes easily without pain or numbness.

[Craig]

Re: pins and needles

i use two pillows that seem to be almost okay. just a little too low. i've been planning on making my own zafu so i can adjust the height by the amount of buckwheat. i find the posture totally relaxing and attention filled when it all comes together. it's like the embodiment of enlightenment. (even though that's not what we're going for :P )

peace-
craig

[Borsuk]

Re: pins and needles

I am new to sitting so when this first started to occur I dismissed it as nothing but my body not being used to sitting in this fashion for long periods of time (30-40 minutes)

I thought the same, Kyle, but after a year in the half lotus the numbness still hasn't gone away. Maybe it takes longer?

In any case you are not alone in you pins and needles experience.

Thanks the moral support!

Just Saying its good to push through a bit of discomfort but any thing else is your body telling you something. Best to listen

Thanks for sharing you experiences, Shohei. I don't want to do any damage to myself. Perhaps my body is telling me that the half lotus is not good for it... It would be a bit of a shame to quit on the half lotus now, though. In general, the pain has been getting less and less in this position. It's just that I can't seem to avoid cutting off the blood supply to the raised foot. I may sit in the burmese a few times to see how it suits me. There is also the 'quarter-lotus' with the raised foot on the calf of the other leg, rather than the thigh... That's the posture I started with. My practice is regressing ops: Good job it's 'goaless sitting'

What about Zabutons? Do they really help?

Thanks!

Gassho,
David

[Dosho]

Re: pins and needles

Hey David,

I have always used a zabuton and would definitely recommend it, but I usually sit burmese with only a few attempts at half lotus. I figure I'll eventually stretch out where I can go further.

By the way, did anyone else really work their thighs during the jukai ceremony? I could barely walk the next day from all the prostrating! I really need to find a good strecthing routine.

Gassho,
Scott (Dosho)

[Tb]

Re: pins and needles

Hi.
During the second day of the sesshin, i got an immense pain in my leg, thank god that emma is a masseur!
I think that if you stretch and sit a lot you will get used to it, but you also have to sit longer periods to get used to that too.
And a zabuton (or suchlike) helps.

Mtfbwy
Tb

[KellyRok]

Re: pins and needles

Hello David,

I have been sitting now for about 10-11 months and I still get pins and needles in the half lotus position (when I try to sit half lotus). I agree with Jools here, the pins and needles are telling you that you are pinching a nerve and maybe you should switch. I'm not sure, maybe you can try some yoga stretching and overcome it. But, I have arthritis in my knee already and my docs told me that I shouldn't try the half lotus and the full lotus is definitely out.

I do yoga and alot of stretching, but still the pins and needles have persisted. Unfortunately, my situation is that I have a curved spine that makes my hips (and pretty much the whole left side of my body) uneven, even while sitting in proper zazen posture. So, I have changed to mostly sitting in the burmese position and even then I have to change position about halfway through a 30-40 sitting.

I just received a proper zafu (buckwheat filled), which has made my sittings alot more comfortable. I've never had a zabuton - instead, I use a think blanket folded in four (about the same height as a zabuton). I do think a zabuton is necessary for knee comfort.

I'm not sure if this was any help to you...but I believe your best bet is to listen to your body.

Gassho,
Kelly/Jinmei

[Jinho]

Re: pins and needles

Hi David,

Pins and needles aren't because you are not stretched, it is because something is cutting off circulation (calf pressing against thigh, for example).

Stools are very nice things. As are seiza benches (you can make them veyr easily - I used rubber feet and rubber washers to jack my seiza bench to the right height for me). But a 15 inch to 17 inch stool gives a nice firm support and no pain.

cheers,
rowan

[Longdog]

Re: pins and needles

But a 15 inch to 17 inch stool gives a nice firm support and no pain.
rowan

Hi Rowan, this sounds like a daft question but how do you 'sit' on a 15-17 inch stool? Seems too high for sieza style and too low for normal 'chair' sitting.

As regards the rest of the thread...

I have big problems with sitting for extended periods. I can sit for 30 minutes max on my bench before my feet/lower legs are totally dead. 10 minutes kinhin isn't enough for them to recover enough for another it. It' really annoying as otherwise I love this position and have no other discomfort.

I keep persevering with burmese but although I can more or less sit it OK now my inside leg very soon (10minute) goes dead.

I've tried a chair but feel very uncomfortable and end up getting severe upper back pain even though I've experimented with seat height. I think lumbar support might help me plus a monk suggested sitting 'egyptian' style. I.E. hand on thighs rather than in the mudra, it's alot better. All very non-hardcore but if it means I can 'drop body and mind' then I'l try not to get to hung up on lotus etc.

Interesting to hear others experience.

In gassho, Kev