Chanting-Nichiren Shu

[Tb]

Re: Chanting-Nichiren Shu

Hi.

I may be bad, but i feel good!
- evil general in army of darkness

Mtfbwy
Tb

[Hans]

Re: Chanting-Nichiren Shu

Hello Jundo!

In spirit I happen to be one of the 5% as well, however (and that's a big however), the issue does not stop with personal practice but goes beyond that and ends up firmly in the political and social realities of people's lives. Most people who call themselves XYZ support not only their own practice, but whole organisations through giving money or simply through belonging to them and thus confirming the status quo. In the case of catholicism (and yes we can find dodgy examples within our own buddhist ranks as well), you can sit all the Zazen you like, as long as you're still an official member paying church tax, your "fringe definition" of catholicism-Zazen strengthens an organisation that actively keeps people in thrid world countries from using contraception etc. etc.

Of course you know that I love to disagree with you (otherwise it'd be far too boring) sometimes and that this whole issue isn't anything that is of great importance to me. I am just adding this because conveying intentions via the internet is pretty difficult at times

Big Gassho,

Hans

[Craig]

Re: Chanting-Nichiren Shu

[quote="Shui_Di"]Just want to share.... I my self also jumped from one tradition to another tradition when I'm in junior high school, till I found treeleaf.

thanks for sharing your experience with jumping traditions. i think it's gonna be too much to mix. that wasn't my intention anyway. if anything, i see myself MAYBE going to a universalist church in addition to some buddhist practice in the future...but that is a huge MAYBE and would be for my family. buddhism is definitely my religion of choice :wink:

for about a year i've just been so hung up on 'getting it all figured out' before i jump into a tradition. but, zen just makes total sense to me. and, even though it is a quite rigorous practice it's prolly where i'm gonna land here soon. as it turns out, the person i was chanting with is also a zen priest. so i think i might go back to the local soto zen center, despite my MAJOR issues with the STICK. so we'll see what happens.

thanks for everyone's input on this thread. it has been so helpful to me.

peace-
craig

[AlanLa]

Re: Chanting-Nichiren Shu

Hans comments made me think of when I lived in Tucson, AZ. I was just beginning to get serious about zen at that time. There they have Zen Desert Sangha and the teacher there is Pat Hawk Roshi, who was one of Aitken's students. I went and heard a couple dharma talks by him and he was pretty good, but Jundo is funnier. Anyway, Pat Hawk is also a catholic priest, with a church, and that was his "day" job, and ZDS was moonlighting, or something like that I guess. He wasn't full-time there anyway. The Buddhists had no problem with him being a priest, but I was always very curious what the catholic church thought about him also being a Buddhist priest. And I was also curious how it was to be a priest in two different religions, although there is no inherent conflict between them, and Han's comments reminded me of all this.

[Craig]

Re: Chanting-Nichiren Shu

i find the mixture of buddhism and christianity curious. especially zen. it seems that if one is always in zazen (goal-less, dropping thought, mind etc.) then what would even be the point of practicing anything else? what would be the interest? no need for answers to those questions. just some thoughts. i do think there is some fine thread that moves through the world religions and that is compassion.
craig

[Jundo]

Re: Chanting-Nichiren Shu

i find the mixture of buddhism and christianity curious. especially zen. it seems that if one is always in zazen (goal-less, dropping thought, mind etc.) then what would even be the point of practicing anything else? what would be the interest? no need for answers to those questions. just some thoughts. i do think there is some fine thread that moves through the world religions and that is compassion.
craig

Hi Craig,,

Well, many folks think about their Christianity or Judaism as you about Nichiren style chanting., and as you described your feelings about chanting in your posts!

It is not my way, so I speak as an outsider ... But perhaps the most natural way to "blend" them all is to realize (for folks who wish to follow more than one path) that the way to "find" ... be it something you call Jehovah or Allah or the Sun Buddha or Emptyness ... is just by not searching., goallessness, just seeing. Perhaps "I am What I am" means "Is Just As It Is" ... to pray or chant with no thought of receiving or attainment.

Something like that. You would have to look to some of the writings of folks who are seeking to blend Judaism, Christianity and such with their Zen Practice.

Gassho, Jundo

[AlanLa]

Re: Chanting-Nichiren Shu

Hans comments made me think of when I lived in Tucson, AZ. I was just beginning to get serious about zen at that time. There they have Zen Desert Sangha and the teacher there is Pat Hawk Roshi, who was one of Aitken's students. I went and heard a couple dharma talks by him and he was pretty good, but Jundo is funnier. Anyway, Pat Hawk is also a catholic priest, with a church, and that was his "day" job, and ZDS was moonlighting, or something like that I guess. He wasn't full-time there anyway. The Buddhists had no problem with him being a priest, but I was always very curious what the catholic church thought about him also being a Buddhist priest. And I was also curious how it was to be a priest in two different religions, although there is no inherent conflict between them, and Han's comments reminded me of all this.

Now that I think about it a bit, I am not so sure Pat Hawk had a church. No one ever explicitly said that he was a priest at a church, just that he was at a place called Picture Rocks, which is just a small spot in the desert. When I google him now I see that he is described as a teacher of catholic contemplative practice (a la Thomas Merton?), so maybe he was at a monastery there. If so, that makes his zen priesthood easier to mix, I suppose.

[Craig]

Re: Chanting-Nichiren Shu

Craig,,

Well, many folks think about their Christianity or Judaism as you about Nichiren style chanting., and as you described you feelings about chanting in your posts!

It is not my way, so I speak as an outsider ... But perhaps the most natural way to "blend" them all is to realize (for folks who wish to follow more than one path) that the way to "find" ... be it something you call Jehovah or Allah or the Sun Buddha or Emptyness ... is just by not searching., goallessness, just seeing. Perhaps "I am What I am" means "Is Just As It Is" ... to pray or chant with no thought of receiving or attainment.

Something like that. You would have to look to some of the writings of folks who are seeking to blend Judaism, Christianity and such with their Zen Practice.

thanks jundo. like i said, just some thoughts. to each his own. it's just quite refreshing and liberating for zen to be so non-evangelical. at the same time, it's nice to know that i could still go to church with my wife if she wanted to go. no goal, just going to church
fyi-the chanting for me is just that. i think i've made some peace with my hang ups about zen and nichiren. i definitely land on the zen side and the nichiren stuff has just kind of dropped away 8) . that doesn't mean i wont chant anymore thought :wink:
many deep bows to this kind and gracious group.
craig

[Jinho]

Re: Chanting-Nichiren Shu

HI,

Gee I feel uniquely qualified to this since I have done zazen and also have (in the past) done 6 years of Nichiren Shoshu practice (chanting Nam Myoho Renge Kyo), as well as having been a neo-pagan (wiccan) for 25 years.

Chanting of that type is indeed a magical act. Doing it is no different than making any other action (watering the garden helps the plants grow, putting petrol in the car makes the car run, etc) assuming one accepts the premise that magical acts are possible.

And sitting zazen is also an action, but with probably a different effect.

But there are many DIFFERENT actions we must all make every day to take care of our lives, to keep it all going.

People strangely feel that "religions" are mutually exclusive, while they would never think of asking "but you play piano, how can you possibly also ski?" Of course I am firmly fo the opinion that zen buddhism is not a religion (I opt for "process" but with some "philosophy") since most religions involve the belief in at least one supernatural being ("god"). But the important thing for me is to not be caught up in the delusional deffinitional boundaries that I might in my conscious or (not very) subconscious mind. I cherish my experience at a sesshin when the teacher started to quote Rumi, and I suddenly had this intense outrage because RUMI IS NOT A ZEN TEACHER!!!!!!!!!!! And so I was able to realize that I was holding this delusion that I believed that enlightened understanding was exclusively held by zennists and everybody else's understanding was inferior. It was a great moment for me. (I am sure it seems quite trivial to others). Zen Master Jeff Kitsis says that constant examination is of primary importance to Understanding. As my first drawing teacher said, "jsut keep looking closer".

thank you for your time,
rowan

[Craig]

Re: Chanting-Nichiren Shu

thanks for the remarks. interesting perspective from a former? chanter. for me, i am actually seeing that chanting is just that, chanting. i might do it sometimes, but it's not zazen. although i have my hangups about zen and the fact that zazen is quite difficult and rigorous, i think it's right for me right now. it totally makes sense by not making any sense.
peace
craig