New practice, seems useful

[Jundo]

一切衆生悉有仏性

Conventionally read in Mahayana Buddhism as “all living beings possess Buddha-nature," Dogen rendered this as "all living beings are thoroughly Buddha-nature."

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

Reinvent the wheel of dharma by imagining the Buddha never existed and never spoke.

You are simply placing your belief in "what the Buddha said" into one interpretation of South Asian Buddhism (not such an old or original interpretation, by the way, although folks mistake it for "original Buddhism" when it is, in fact, a much later interpretation), all of which is further interpreted through the modernizing and softening lens of Thich Naht Hanh, recently passed. No, it is not "what the Buddha spoke" or, said another way, not the only teaching that the Buddha spoke.

It is a lovely interpretation, but is tennis to our game of goalless football here. All may have there place, but be careful in mixing and matching.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kokuu]

Me: but words of the Buddha are helpful.

Sangha: wrong. Just sit.

My Takeaway: just sit. Reinvent the wheel of dharma by imagining the Buddha never existed and never spoke.

I’m sure this is also wrong. If so, this dense
block of wood grows new shoots when watered and placed in the sun.

Hi Ilmari

It is certainly not necessary to imagine that the Buddha never existed or that his words are not to be relied upon. However, certain sutras relate to certain practices and do not fit with others.

It is also true that in the roughly two-and-a-half millennia since the Buddha was here, practices have been developed within the framework of the dharma he expounded, such as the four noble truths, that have also been found to free us from suffering. Shikantaza is such a practice. That said, as I mentioned earlier, Shikantaza seems similar to the description of the Buddha sitting in his childhood watching a ploughing match in the sun.

This doesn't mean that your idea was in anyway bad, it just doesn't fit with the way we practice here. I don't think we are reinventing the wheel of the dharma but it is also true to say that the dharma itself has undergone refinement over several thousand years of practicing it. As Jundo has said, even what is presented as 'early Buddhism' is very unlikely to be the actual words of the Buddha, and Theravadan practice has certainly undergone a great deal of change.

The important thing is finding a teacher and a practice and sticking with it. It may be that you find that here at Treeleaf, or you may not. I hope you stick around for a while to see. With any teacher you are likely to have your notions of practice challenged, and I know from personal experience that can suck, but it is annoyingly useful!

Apologies for running long.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Shinshi]

Hi Ilmari,

Maybe this will help. It is important to note what Treeleaf is and isn't. Treeleaf is a Zendo that happens to be online. It is not a general forum devoted to Buddhism in general.

Like any Zendo we have a teacher (Jundo) and we are from a particular school - Soto Zen. And we have a lineage that traces back through time through Jundo, and his teacher, and his teacher before. So we have particular practices and rituals that flow from that lineage.

That is not to say our way is the only way. There are many paths up the mountain. Rinzai Zen, the Theravadan schools all are good. But each has a way of doing things.

In the Treeleaf Zendo we do Shikantaza. That is how we practice. If you come in and say: I have something new - well that is fine - but it isn't what we do here. You are certainly free to meditate as you see fit. But if your suggestion isn't the way of the Zendo, then we will tell you - "that isn't how we do it". If you want to learn our practices and rituals you are very welcome. We are more than happy to have you be a part of Treeleaf.

But it is important to realize this isn't a general interest forum. This isn't like a guitar forum where one person says I like Les Pauls, and another says I only play Telecasters. This is an online Soto Zen Zendo that happens to use a forum to communicate.

-Sorry for running long.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Prashanth]

Dear Ilmari,
Thanks for sharing details of a practice which has been helpful to you. It's a blessing to find a practice which one can go along with. If that practice makes you find peace, then you are blessed. So is each of us with our own practice.

All practice is personal.
All practice is emptiness.
Practice begins where preference ends.
Not mine and thine.
No me or Sangha.
Yet, the Sangha is a caravan
Where we follow the common path



Gassho.
Prashanth

Sat.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-7305F using Tapatalk

[Amelia]

...“Me”: here’s a practice that seems useful.

Sangha: Wrong. Just sit.

Me: OK I get it. Just sit, that’s what I do. But this seems useful.

Sangha: Wrong. Just sit.

Me: but words of the Buddha are helpful.

Sangha: wrong. Just sit.

My Takeaway: just sit. Reinvent the wheel of dharma by imagining the Buddha never existed and never spoke...

That is a somewhat overly simplistic take on the advice you have been given. We are a Soto-Zen sangha, and our practice is shikantaza zazen. While some of the different schools, teachers and nuances are interesting to bring up from an intellectual perspective every now and then, we will not encourage adding anything unnecessary to our core practice. I would hope that you please see what others are telling you as a gentle nudge to try our way and not a shutting down of your individuality.

Another way to put it is like this: We make excellent chocolate ice cream. Someone comes along and wonders why we don't make vanilla as well. We don't need to make vanilla-- we have made chocolate ice cream for decades and live well and fully. Every once in a while the formula has changed a little, but only in order to make the chocolate better and more accessible to all. That doesn't mean there is anything wrong with vanilla... it just means that perhaps the person that wants vanilla should go to a place that makes vanilla, or in the very least, tries the chocolate for a while before deciding if it is good or not for them.

I agree with how Shinshi puts it:

...It is important to note what Treeleaf is and isn't. Treeleaf is a Zendo that happens to be online. It is not a general forum devoted to Buddhism in general.

Like any Zendo we have a teacher (Jundo) and we are from a particular school - Soto Zen. And we have a lineage that traces back through time through Jundo, and his teacher, and his teacher before. So we have particular practices and rituals that flow from that lineage.

That is not to say our way is the only way. There are many paths up the mountain. Rinzai Zen, the Theravadan schools all are good. But each has a way of doing things...

Gassho
Sat, lah

[Ilmari]

Thanks again to everyone for their responses to this thread.

I removed the sutra from the meditation space as suggested.

It turns out that it never really does leave.

It seems to have become the zabuton instead.

Gassho,

Ilmari

Sat

[Kakunen]

Thanks again to everyone for their responses to this thread.

I removed the sutra from the meditation space as suggested.

It turns out that it never really does leave.

It seems to have become the zabuton instead.

Gassho,

Ilmari

Sat

Hi

I have some advice to you.I also have teacher,only one teacher.
But I will go outside of teacher called Angya(practice from temple to temple).

But I think first you need to search teacher.This is most important things.
In case I can not refuse what teacher said.I can not say No!

But I sometime I suggest to him,I want to go to Angya another temple(Also Soto sect).
And sometimes I will go to mindful retreat and vipassana and pilgrimage.

And Geika said this thered ,We are Soto-zen sangha,but,this is not right.

I am official Soto sect Zen monk.

https://www.sotozen-net.or.jp/

Offical Soto Zen have offical way of practice,so strict,and train long period,
and separate society,and need lots of money.

Maybe Jundo explain at Treeleaf page,Treeleaf is kind of Soto-Zen style Sangha.
I just want to say,very important thing is knowing right way,and have teacher.
And live as Buddha.But I honesty said to you,I like this Sangha.
I love to practice here.Because if I do not join here,I can not meet you and all member at here.

Sorry for bad English.Because I am Japanese,so I have no opputunity to talk and write English outside of here.

Hope to have good practice.

Gassho
Sat LAH
kakunen

[Jundo]

I am official Soto sect Zen monk.

https://www.sotozen-net.or.jp/

Offical Soto Zen have offical way of practice,so strict,and train long period,
and separate society,and need lots of money.

Maybe Jundo explain at Treeleaf page,Treeleaf is kind of Soto-Zen style Sangha.

Hah! This place and about 2/3rds of Soto Zen priests in North America would not qualify as "official Soto Zen" by your definition. The training regime in Japan is primarily now for the sons of temple families who will undertake training to take over the family temple, usually focused on funeral and memorial culture. In fact, Japanese Zen is so focused on this way, that those priests should all come and practice with us! Very few western Soto Zen Sangha seek authorization from the Soto-shu in Japan. I recently heard that about 80% of the people in the San Francisco Zen Center/Shunryu Suzuki Lineage do not bother with Japanese Soto-shu nor seek any credentials from them. Authorization from one's own Lineage is enough.

And you, Kakunen, are not a "Soto Zen" Priest either, or any kind of "Priest" or teacher, but an unauthorized, untransmited Unsui novice in Training who should not comment on what is Soto too or teach in any way. In Japan, you would not even be allowed to open your mouth about what is Soto Zen! Please do us the kindness of remembering that too.

Nishijima Roshi was of the opinion (as was Suzuki Roshi) that Japanese Soto had so lost its way that it's only hope for revival was in the west! Please don't be so culturally bound because you are Japanese to what is the "right way."

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - But I do not think that Japanese teachers would approve of Ilmari's "Chart" Zazen either.

[Ilmari]

Thank you for sharing the link! It was very helpful.

Gassho,

Ilmari
Sat

[Kakunen]

Hah! This place and about 2/3rds of Soto Zen priests in North America would not qualify as "official Soto Zen" by your definition. The training regime in Japan is primarily now for the sons of temple families who will undertake training to take over the family temple, usually focused on funeral and memorial culture. In fact, Japanese Zen is so focused on this way, that those priests should all come and practice with us! Very few western Soto Zen Sangha seek authorization from the Soto-shu in Japan. I recently heard that about 80% of the people in the San Francisco Zen Center/Shunryu Suzuki Lineage do not bother with Japanese Soto-shu nor seek any credentials from them. Authorization from one's own Lineage is enough.

And you, Kakunen, are not a "Soto Zen" Priest either, or any kind of "Priest" or teacher, but an unauthorized, untransmited Unsui novice in Training who should not comment on what is Soto too or teach in any way. In Japan, you would not even be allowed to open your mouth about what is Soto Zen! Please do us the kindness of remembering that too.

Nishijima Roshi was of the opinion (as was Suzuki Roshi) that Japanese Soto had so lost its way that it's only hope for revival was in the west! Please don't be so culturally bound because you are Japanese to what is the "right way."

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

PS - But I do not think that Japanese teachers would approve of Ilmari's "Chart" Zazen either.

OK!ご指摘ありがとね(^^♪

86258374_1294490090743183_5184670613179990016_n.jpg

Gassho
Sat today
LAH
kakunen

[Kakunen]

Hey! Sangha!

This is my mind deeply.

Nothing Compares to you.

I will try to answer all question.
I respect you.

I am Japanese.I will be brigde eastern to western.

Here we go!

Gassho
Sat today
LAH
kakunen

[Tomás ESP]

OK!ご指摘ありがとね(^^♪

[ATTACH=CONFIG]7584[/ATTACH]

Gassho
Sat today
LAH
kakunen

Hey! I know the second zen monk starting from the right. He was in a documentary I saw on youtube. Fascinating and inspiring story!

Here is the clip:

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Amelia]

Oh! I've seen that picture a few times, never noticed that it was the same guy from that video! I like that video

Gassho
Sat, lah

[Seth David]

This thread is amazing by the way. Thanks everyone! 🙏

Gassho
Seth
SatToday