Thinking Not Thinking

[Mrcpt11]

When I started sitting zazen I relied heavily on counting breath or 'knowing I am breathing' as described in the Satipatthana Sutta. I think most here would agree that, while valuable practices in their own right, neither of those techniques are shikantaza zazen.

In his book Sit Down And Shut Up Brad Warner describes 'thinking not thinking' (if I understand what he's getting at) as trying to remain in the nebulous space in between thoughts. If while sitting I don't think then my thoughts come and go; sort of like when you are scanning through radio stations - some static, maybe a song you recognize a line or two from, some more static.

But when I try thinking not thinking as Warner describes, trying to remain in the nebulous space between thoughts, I can actually stay in that space for a bit (maybe 30 seconds at a time). Staying in between thoughts, or thinking not thinking, feels like it takes balance, similar to the body balancing on the cushion. Is that mind/body balancing act still considered shikantaza zazen?

Am I understanding 'thinking not thinking' here?

Sorry for running long.

Gassho,
William

sattlah

[Jundo]

In his book Sit Down And Shut Up Brad Warner describes 'thinking not thinking' (if I understand what he's getting at) as trying to remain in the nebulous space in between thoughts. If while sitting I don't think then my thoughts come and go; sort of like when you are scanning through radio stations - some static, maybe a song you recognize a line or two from, some more static.

But when I try thinking not thinking as Warner describes, trying to remain in the nebulous space between thoughts, I can actually stay in that space for a bit (maybe 30 seconds at a time). Staying in between thoughts, or thinking not thinking, feels like it takes balance, similar to the body balancing on the cushion. Is that mind/body balancing act still considered shikantaza zazen?

Am I understanding 'thinking not thinking' here?

I would not try so hard. Rather, it is a matter of relaxing and letting things be, without getting tangled in them.

So, thoughts come an go. Usually, we take up thoughts, let one thought follow another, and react emotionally to thoughts. We get caught in long trains of thought, and we add further thoughts and stir up thoughts. For example ...

I need eggs ... I must go shopping ... but I need gas for the car ... that is expensive ... it makes me really angry ... the politicians are to blame ... my father likes that politician ... I must call my father ... what should I buy him for his birthday ... I must go shopping ...

This time, when finding yourself in a long train, jump off, or don't play along with the game. Return to the breath, or to (better, when you can) "open spacious awareness, focused on everything and nothing in particular," and put the train down. For example ...

I need eggs ... I must go shopping ... ... just return to breath.

Just do that, again and again.

Also, sit in radical equanimity, with trust in the fact that sitting fulfils sitting. When sitting, nothing lacks. Let eggs be eggs. Let gas be gas, fathers be fathers. The things of life are like furniture in the room, just to be left as they are.

A funny thing then happens. A feeling of light, clarity and wholeness shines through all the complexity of life. It shines through the eggs and gas and fathers, it shines through the "..." between thoughts too. So, our sitting is not only the "not thinking" of the "..." between thoughts. It is not the "thinking" of "eggs, shopping, politicians, angry, gas, father" ... but it is the "light, clarity and wholeness" that shines from and through BOTH "thinking" and "not thinking." We call this "thinking not thinking" or "non-thinking."

So, it is not only the space between thoughts. It is not being tangled in thoughts too, and letting the light of simplicity, clarity, untangled wholeness shine between both thoughts and no thoughts.

In between stations is good. Tune or news report comes on radio, don't listen, no problem, just keep turning the nob back to empty air (returning to the breath, don't start humming along or listening to the news) ...

... BUT tune or no tune, news or no news, sit in equanimity. We learn to hear that the silence between stations and the music and the news are ALL THE SAME WAVE OF CLEAR SILENCE! Even the music and the horrible news is just silence too. Even the eggs, politicians, gas, fathers, birthdays is clarity and peace.

Don't try so hard. Just let thoughts come and go, without being tangled, sitting in the wholeness of sitting, nothing lacking from sitting, no other place to be or thing to do during the time of sitting.

Does that help a bit?

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Sorry to run long.

[Rich]

NISHIJIMA used to talk a lot about the balanced state. I think just sitting is that. Have you noticed that some thoughts really grab you and are more difficult to let go of? I think that’s attachment. I’ve noticed as my practice matures letting go of thinking is just a natural choice because it’s mostly useless garbage. But i do use thinking to create my world and solve my problems. So i would say the space is just awareness which requires practice to attain. What is this? Only don’t know

Sat/lah


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[Tomás ESP]

When I sit Shikantaza I am just aware of it all, with the full trust that this is enough. If the mind wanders, I come back to being aware. I do find that just being aware though is not enough. As Jundo points out many times, it's also about sitting with the full conviction that you are already Buddha. For this, I like to use the sentence "Just This Is It" as a gentle reminder, feel this trust in the body, and go back to just being aware. Thank you for sharing your progress

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Jundo]

it's also about sitting with the full conviction that you are already Buddha. For this, I like to use the sentence "Just This Is It" as a gentle reminder, feel this trust in the body, and go back to just being aware.

Lovely.

Of course, we don't voice "Just This Is It" again and again, repeating like a Mantra. It is rather that we just feel deep in the bones, with all conviction and trust, that "Just This Is It."

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tomás ESP]

Lovely.

Of course, we don't voice "Just This Is It" again and again, repeating like a Mantra. It is rather that we just feel deep in the bones, with all conviction and trust, that "Just This Is It."

Gassho, J

STLah

Right, good point! I just use it once or twice during the whole duration of zazen, when my mind has really wandered into dreams of becoming a Buddha

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Ryumon]

Here's what made me grasp this idea, many years ago. Back when I meditated by following my breath, I noticed that I breathe in, then I breathe out, then there's a pause. Amazing things happen during that pause: there is no movement for a second or two, and the mind can stop following the breath. That's when I thought non-thinking. When I started doing shikantaza, I understood that the mind during the pause was the mind during shikantaza. Naturally, it won't be like that often, or for long periods of time, but I know what it feels like. I don't chase after it, but I'm able to aim for it, in a way.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

[Shinshi]

You already have great answers but I will add:

If you are thinking about not thinking then you are thinking and you should stop.

Don't try to evaluate your Zazen, just do your Zazen.

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Mrcpt11]

Thank you, all, for your responses. Looks like I have a lot to not think about.

Gassho,
William
sattlah

[Jundo]

One or two points vital to recall:

It is not enough to sit merely following the breath (or sitting in Open Awareness), not latching onto thoughts or sitting in the space between thoughts. That is all necessary, but not by themselves "Shikantaza," Just Sitting which Hits the Mark. One or two other points are vital:

First, one must sit in radical fulfillment and equanimity, in which sitting is sat as a sacred act, the one thing to do, the only act that is or needs to be done during the time of sitting, with not one atom lacking or to be added to sitting during the time of sitting, sitting truly sat for sitting's sake. This is not something that need be voiced, but rather, a confidence, faith and trust felt subtly in the bones while sitting. (Why? This is the medicine for our constant need in life to do, change, fix, grab, attain, measure, rate, need or despair, be somewhere else, do something more.)

Next, as this is a practice of Silent Illumination, a certain Light, Clarity, Wholeness, Boundlessness, Peace and Quiet will arise which is sensed to shine and embody all the worldly peace and chaos, quiet or noise of this world. It is a Light which shines, not only from worldly silence, but from the very heart of every word and thought and shout and bomb exploding in this world. It is a Peace which embodies all the round or sharp broken pieces of this world. This is a Calm which is both ordinary stillness and the world's greatest violence. It is a Light which is both the daylight and life's darkest and stormiest moments.

Only when such is experienced is this truly Shikantaza, Thinking-Non-Thinking.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bokugan]

Here's what made me grasp this idea, many years ago. Back when I meditated by following my breath, I noticed that I breathe in, then I breathe out, then there's a pause. Amazing things happen during that pause: there is no movement for a second or two, and the mind can stop following the breath. That's when I thought non-thinking. When I started doing shikantaza, I understood that the mind during the pause was the mind during shikantaza. Naturally, it won't be like that often, or for long periods of time, but I know what it feels like. I don't chase after it, but I'm able to aim for it, in a way.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

This is very helpful, thank you Ryūmon (Kirk)

And thanks for kicking up such a great discussion, William. I am getting a lot out of everyone's responses.

Gassho,

Bokugan
SatToday LaH

[Nengyoku]

And thanks for kicking up such a great discussion, William. I am getting a lot out of everyone's responses.

Gassho,

Bokugan
SatToday LaH

Agreed.

Many thanks, William.

Gassho,
Nengyoku
SatLah

[bayamo]

In his book Sit Down And Shut Up Brad Warner describes 'thinking not thinking' (if I understand what he's getting at) as trying to remain in the nebulous space in between thoughts. If while sitting I don't think then my thoughts come and go; sort of like when you are scanning through radio stations - some static, maybe a song you recognize a line or two from, some more static.

i like that scanning through a radio analogy
#sattoday

[Jinyo]

I struggled with 'thinking not thinking' for a long time asking myself 'what is this state, how do I know if I've experienced it?' I stopped asking my head for the answer and decided to listen with my heart. Maybe that sense of calm and equanimity only lasts seconds but once experienced the heart doesn't forget. For me, this is what makes sitting sacred, a state of grace.
I don't use the breath as an anchor very often - its more like a compass setting the true direction at the beginning of sitting, particularly if my mind is all over the place. I'm experiencing big gaps between sitting past months - still overwhelmed at times by illness and life's practicalities. I can't conjure up that state of peace by just 'thinking' about it - if I try to do that its like a memory trace in my mind which only serves to tell me I'm missing out on something vital in my life.
So sometimes I begin a sit chasing that memory trace and it doesn't help at all because basically I'm still thinking. Letting go - allowing myself to fall into that spaciousness that's free of grasping onto thought yet embraces everything, darkness and light, often meets with resistance. I try not to judge - understand that there's no such thing as a good/bad sit - but my heart says 'yes there is'. My heart knows when I've spent an entire sit thinking - rather than thinking not thinking. Is it wrong to feel this is vital information rather than negative dual thinking?

Gassho

Jinyo

sat today

[Jundo]

... Letting go ... that spaciousness that's free of grasping onto thought yet embraces everything, darkness and light ...

What a lovely description of "Thinking Not Thinking" or "Non-thinking"!

I believe that you are correct. It is hard to think oneself into such state. It is not a "doing," but rather more a "letting go" and putting down the doing (of thinking and getting tangled in thoughts).

But one can do certain things to set the stage, or prepare the soil, for letting go. Lighting some incense, bowing, finding a quiet space, room lighting not too bright, not too noisy (really, outside environment should not matter if the heart is quiet, but a quiet space makes it easier for the heart to quiet), taking a good posture, nurturing a certain unvoiced faith in the bones that sitting is sacred and complete unto itself, returning again and again to the breath or "open awareness" ... all this is preparing the soil.

Gassho, J

STLah