Do we still need religion?

[houst0n]

Well, to be the counter here then -- I really don't consider Zen Buddhism to be a religion like I do others like Islam or Christianity or Scientology or ... whatever.

If I did I wouldn't have come to it.

See, where I am from, religion (or, more precisely flavours of Christianity) has a stigma -- it's caused and has continued to cause a lot of problems for my society. You can argue maybe it's just an excuse for people to fight who would have fought over other stuff anyway; but at least for me the whole mess of intolerance and stupidity is tied into organised religions. And that's without even getting into all the abhorrent abuses the so called religious folks of the various christian chuches have committed upon those who couldn't defend themselves, especially against children the indefensible protection these awful criminals been afforded by the senior folks in their camp. How can anyone align with this?

I'm a kind of engineer by trade I guess, a science person, I like logical things. I write code most of the day. I really believe in the scientific method. So I look at organised religion in the west, and I just see corruption and authority based on fear of something that's apparently coming after we die. They can't prove their explanation of the 'better' life that's coming after we die (or the worse one if we don't follow their rules), but I can't buy into such wild imaginings without any evidence which by design is impossible in such a system.. We see them actively trying to indoctrinate people as young as possible, to continue this system as it's harder to convince a rational adult to believe in such stuff.. Slowly, they're losing their power in society and they're not going quietly. It was probably useful for us as an evolutionary meme (if you've read Dawkins) (don't kill everyone or after you die the boogie man will get you!: This helped society greatly before we developed further), but IMO we outlived that and now it's actively harmful to our society because the indoctrinated can't let go.

A final point to ram it home: The christians claim their beliefs mean they will embrace their neighbour, and want to help society. Great. Then, please, do it.

Instead, the Vatican bank is sitting on an untold amount of money (billions). Yet they don't use that to fix a lot of the hunger that's going around. They sit in their bejeweld rooms in their own special country inside Italy and drink 1000 euro bottles of wine.

Why do all the churches here have loads of gold and precious stones when those could be sold and the money could provide housing for vulnerable people?

I slowly came to the conclusion that these people are, for the most part, morally bankrupt and corrupt. So, I look at some other religions, and none of them seemed much better.

Zen, to me, as I discovered it -- was not about believing in some unknowable, unprovable diety and sacrificing my current life for what apparently comes after I die. It's a 'philosophy of action' to steal a line from Nishijima; and it's one I'm living. I just help people out, and "don't be a jerk" and I sit and observe what my mind is doing and I'm not after any payout later on.

That's not a religion, a magic unicorn would be nice, but alas -- it's just a way to live (for me)..

(sorry for going long)

Gassho,
./sat
Neil

[Anchi]

[michaelw]

Do we still need religion?

Yes, no, both, neither.

st

[Jundo]

See, where I am from, religion (or, more precisely flavours of Christianity) has a stigma -- it's caused and has continued to cause a lot of problems for my society. ...

I'm a kind of engineer by trade I guess, a science person, I like logical things.

I would just note that it is important to drop some assumptions and baggage about this perhaps. While it may be true for some important corners of Christianity, it is not necessarily true for all corners of Christianity. In fact, I know many exceptions who may get less notice, just focusing on good works. Further, even some groups in Buddhism and Zen Buddhism can exhibit such harmful behavior if given the chance. We need to put down many of our childhood assumptions, and concentrate on being good people ... and identifying other good people ... whatever their creed or religion.

And finally, engineers and "logical" people planned weapons of mass destruction, the trains that led to concentration camps, runaway technology and consumerism, etc. etc. Engineering can be its own religion, with its own morality or lack thereof. (Footnote that, when my freshman son was on his way to start engineering studies this year at Virginia Tech, I made it a point to drag him to the atomic bomb museum in Las Vegas. I am not sure that they emphasize engineering morality sufficiently in his engineering program at school.)

Gassho, J

STLah

[Prashanth]

I would just note that it is important to drop some assumptions and baggage about this perhaps. While it may be true for some important corners of Christianity, it is not necessarily true for all corners of Christianity. In fact, I know many exceptions who may get less notice, just focusing on good works. Further, even some groups in Buddhism and Zen Buddhism can exhibit such harmful behavior if given the chance. We need to put down many of our childhood assumptions, and concentrate on being good people ... and identifying other good people ... whatever their creed or religion.

And finally, engineers and "logical" people planned weapons of mass destruction, the trains that led to concentration camps, runaway technology and consumerism, etc. etc. Engineering can be its own religion, with its own morality or lack thereof. (Footnote that, when my freshman son was on his way to start engineering studies this year at Virginia Tech, I made it a point to drag him to the atomic bomb museum in Las Vegas. I am not sure that they emphasize engineering morality sufficiently in his engineering program at school.)

Gassho, J

STLah

Gassho.

Sat.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-7305F using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Gassho.

Sat.

And Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, many many religions ... some good folks in that religion, and some good interpretations, and some maybe not.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Prashanth]

And Hinduism, Judaism, Islam, many many religions ... some good folks in that religion, and some good interpretations, and some maybe not.

Gassho, J

STLah

Someone wise once revealed the "ABC" of Life as "Avoid Bad Company". I guess what you are saying is that even in our perceptions of religion, even any organized philosophy or approach (like Science), we still have to be aware of both sides. This is avoiding bad company of one-sided judgments, I guess.

Gassho.
Sorry to run long.

Sat.

Sent from my Lenovo TB-7305F using Tapatalk

[Ryumon]

And finally, engineers and "logical" people planned weapons of mass destruction, the trains that led to concentration camps, runaway technology and consumerism, etc. etc. Engineering can be its own religion, with its own morality or lack thereof. (Footnote that, when my freshman son was on his way to start engineering studies this year at Virginia Tech, I made it a point to drag him to the atomic bomb museum in Las Vegas. I am not sure that they emphasize engineering morality sufficiently in his engineering program at school.)

I respectfully disagree. With the exception of those who design weapons, engineers are just good people who like to make new things. I don't see engineering as a religion, any more than any branch of science can be called a religion. (Which is a common thing to say among the woo crowd these days.) Science is not a belief system, it is a way of analyzing the world according to data and theories.

Engineers have figured out how to take us to the moon, soon, perhaps, to Mars, and who knows where else?

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

[Wabo]

It is often a matter of opinion whether Buddhism and Zen are religions or not

I don't see engineering as a religion, any more than any branch of science can be called a religion.

It depends on how we define religion and science.

We can build an ethical superstructure over science, as, for example, Dawkins, Krauss, or our Ukrainian scientists, atheists, do. When an ethical superstructure appears, science ceases to be just a method.

"Astrologers are scammers who steal money from gullible people. We must fight superstition, pseudoscience and clericalism. It harms society," they say.

Science studies "what is", and religion creates an understanding of "what must". When scientists say "what must" it becomes a certain form of religion. And Buddhism in this sense is also a religion (dharma).

And yet, back to the topic, also if religion is defined in the narrow sense as a "re-league", "re-union" of a person with God, then only the Abrahamic religions, Platonism and, perhaps, some forms of Hinduism can be called a religion.

This is a difficult topic dependent on definitions. That is why there is so much debate about this.

Gassho
Wabo
ST

[Kakunen]

Zen is Zazen.

Zazen need What to do.

Religion is what do you think?

This is my answer.Sorry for bad understanding,my understanding English is not so good.


You can change world by image?

You can do moment by moment?

This is my answer.

You can not change neighbours.Just control yourself.

So I think you need to focus,what to do.

I think no mean religion or not.

I think you do real things or not.

Gassho
Sat Lah
Kakunen

[Kakunen]

I could not practice Buddhism if I made a distinction between religion and philosophy. Master Nishijima did not either, and held that a "religion" is any philosophy ... even Marxism, Atheism, Humanism and the like ... which attempts to interpret the human place in reality and how we are supposed to act based on that vision.

I could not believe in Kannon and the other Bodhisattvas if I saw them as unseen forces in unseen mystical realms (I do not believe in such realms anywhere apart from within the human heart), but I can believe in them as symbols for the very real acts of Compassion and insights of Wisdom that can be concretely realized in this life by human beings.

I have no trouble with a few ceremonies, because ceremonies are lovely dances, practices, and even atheists have their ceremonies ... graduations, weddings, awards ceremonies ... and who does not love to dance, losing oneself and finding oneself again in the pure motion?

https://www.bbc.co.uk/religion/religions/atheism/ritesrituals/introduction.shtml

We do not chant Dharani in our Treeleaf Sangha because, fundamentally, they were thought of and treated for centuries as magical "abracadabra" incantations for good weather, better health and riches. They represent superstition in religion, so we do not chant them here (even though, granted, they can be lovely from a musical point of view, and perhaps modern people can find some other meanings there too.) It is time to leave much of the religious silliness, fantasy confused with fact, false claims and extreme beliefs out of Buddhism.

Robes and Japanese chants are done out of respect for tradition, like wearing a tuxedo to the Royal Ball or a bride white at a wedding. Buddha statues (which need not even look like a "Buddha," by the way, and can be instead a flower, a stone, an empty space, an old tin can to the wise eye) are just artistic reminders of the wisdom and compassion we teach. There is no "power" in the statue apart from the power within the human heart to bring such teachings to life.

I am not opposed to "faith," but I am opposed to "faith" in things that have no possible basis. I prefer "trust" in teachings and practices which actually work, are what they claim to be.

If Zen Buddhism were, for me, any more of a "religion" than that, I could not practice and teach it.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah
Sorry to run long.

I am sorry.I want to know this opinion in Japanese.

少しこれには疑いがありますね。

Sat Lah
Gassho
Kakunen

[Ryumon]

Do we still need religion?

It depends on how we define religion and science.

We can build an ethical superstructure over science, as, for example, Dawkins, Krauss, or our Ukrainian scientists, atheists, do. When an ethical superstructure appears, science ceases to be just a method.

"Astrologers are scammers who steal money from gullible people. We must fight superstition, pseudoscience and clericalism. It harms society," they say.

This is not “science.” The fact that some of the people who are skeptics or scientists, has nothing to do with this. This is skepticism, this includes questions of ethics, morality, etc. The debunking of pseudoscience is not specifically science; it is comparing what is known from science with what is claimed in pseudoscience.

It is about the truth, nothing more. If anything, this sort of skepticism is more philosophical than scientific.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[houst0n]

I would just note that it is important to drop some assumptions and baggage about this perhaps. While it may be true for some important corners of Christianity, it is not necessarily true for all corners of Christianity. In fact, I know many exceptions who may get less notice, just focusing on good works.

Oh, I didn't mean to imply that everyone fits neatly into such a group. I know some absolutely excellent people who are Christians and Muslims. It did sound quite harsh, not sure why it came out like it did! Sorry!

And finally, engineers and "logical" people planned weapons of mass destruction, the trains that led to concentration camps, runaway technology and consumerism, etc. etc. Engineering can be its own religion, with its own morality or lack thereof.

Morals should be a key part of any development, absolutely.

Gassho,
./sat --lah
Neil

[Yamabushi]

Words are tokens that help us express ideas to one another.

The word religion represents an idea. However, that idea can be different based on a person's culture.

I am a product of Western culture. I was born and raised in the U.S. The idea of religion is usually based on Judeo-Christianity where there is a personal god, divine laws with divine consequences, an origin story, and a story of what happens to us when we die.

If the word "religion" in the question "Do we need religion?" is the idea as I have described it as above it may not fit the idea of Zen Buddhism.

In The Three Pillars of Zen the author says that Zen Buddhism is a religion because it requires faith, but it also requires doubt, and it requires dedication to find the truth. Doubt is prohibited in many religions.

Perhaps the question would better read "Do we need religion that prohibits doubt?"

Gassho,

-Jared
(Sat Today)

[Wabo]

This is not “science.” The fact that some of the people who are skeptics or scientists, has nothing to do with this. This is skepticism, this includes questions of ethics, morality, etc. The debunking of pseudoscience is not specifically science; it is comparing what is known from science with what is claimed in pseudoscience.

It is about the truth, nothing more. If anything, this sort of skepticism is more philosophical than scientific.


Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

I make a distinction between "science" and "scientism". You can call it "skepticism". Does't matter.

You know, I live in a country where atheism, in the past, was the state ideology. It was dangerous to be a religious person in principle. It is not difficult to find a photo in Internet where the communists destroy Christian churches and killed Christian priests. But do you know what happened with the Buddhists?

Of the 175 Buddhist temples registered in the Russian Empire in 1917, all were destroyed by 1940.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deport...of_the_Kalmyks

And all this was done in the name of "science". Stalin wasn't interested in whether Buddhism was a philosophy or a religion or a practice. A lot of blood was shed.

We can also remember Hitler, with his ideas of eugenics. At that time it was advanced science. And even now one can see anthropologists defending "positive eugenics".

I am not against the scientific method as a way of knowing reality, but when "scientism" becomes something social, it induces certain fears in me. And when modern atheists like Dawkins begin to teach how to live.

Gassho
Wabo
ST