Dosho, Dogen, Rujing and History

[Jundo]

Um... I could swear I read the biography of Yotaku Bankei, which said that he and his teacher Dosha Chogen communicated through letters. Bankei didn't speak Chinese and Dosha didn't speak Japanese, but they communicated in kanji. And this happened in the 17th century.

Gassho
Wabo
ST

Oh, it was possible to communicate in written Kanji between educated Chinese and Japanese of the same period, and the meanings could be basically understood, because many educated Japanese (like Dogen) knew how to write and read Chinese.

But the difference between cultures, over hundreds of years, and the strange nature of the content of the Koans, adds more levels of difference. Most Japanese monks of later periods after Dogen did not write and read Chinese at such a sophisticated level (some did.) The difference in centuries adds difficulty. The Koans were also written, not in formal written Chinese, but in a slangy spoken style (kind of like me trying to understand Hip Hop lyrics 500 years from now.) Also, the nature of Koans themselves makes them difficult. For example, think how difficult it is for you to understand this Koan now in English, even though you read decent English (Unlike you, Wabo, they did not have "Google translate" ) (Book of Serenity Case 44):

PREFACE TO THE ASSEMBLY
The lion attacks the elephant,- the Garuda strikes the dragon. Soaring or
crawling, king and minister are discerned. We monks should maintain host
and guest. When a person debases heavenly dignity, how do you cut him
off?

MAIN CASE
Attention! A monk said to Ho Osho of Koyo, "A dragon-king leaves the
ocean, and heaven and earth are calm. Meet him face to face and then what?"
The master replied, "The Garuda attains the universe. At such a time, who
would dare stick his head out?" The monk countered, "When the head sticks
out, then what?" Koyo answered, "It's like a falcon seizing a dove. If you don't
understand, check in front of the balcony and know the truth." The monk
then said, "Well then, I clasp my hands on my chest and retreat three steps."
And Koyo remarked, "Blind turtle pinned under Sumeru. Don't get hit on
the forehead and scarred again!"

APPRECIATORY VERSE
The imperial order descends, the general's order disperses.
Within the fortress, the emperor,- outside the walls, the general.
Thunder doesn't wait for the astonished bugs to crawl out.
You'll never know the wind has stopped the flowing clouds.
The loom's lower warp is continuous and golden needle and jeweled
thread are naturally there.
Plain and vast before sealing, originally there's no ideograph, or worm hole

Even though that is English, the meaning of many of the references is lost with time. Can you read the old Ukranian "The Tale of Igor's Campaign" (Слово о пълкѹ Игоревѣ) easily in the original?



Gassho, J

STLah

[Kyonin]

Thank you Jundo.

I save this for reference and for reading again soon.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

[Tomás ESP]

Thank you Jundo.

I save this for reference and for reading again soon.

Gassho,

Kyonin
Sat/LAH

Same! Thank you Jundo

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

[Wabo]

Even though that is English, the meaning of many of the references is lost with time. Can you read the old Ukranian "The Tale of Igor's Campaign" (Слово о пълкѹ Игоревѣ) easily in the original?

Hey

Yes, I understand what you mean. By the way, the original "The Tale of Igor's Campaign" has not been preserved. And this picture is an excerpt from "The Tale of Bygone Years". But it is also difficult to find a text more than 200 years old. You can find Birch bark manuscripts from 1000 years ago, but the writing system has changed a lot since then. However, they are still readable. The differences in the Slavic languages are not very significant. Ukrainians can understand the Polish language after two days of communication with the Poles. Without any google translator.

1423758474_1548064343.jpg

Gassho
Wabo
ST

[Ryumon]

Even though that is English, the meaning of many of the references is lost with time. Can you read the old Ukranian "The Tale of Igor's Campaign" (Слово о пълкѹ Игоревѣ) easily in the original?

I think there are two things here. One is the writing and language, sort of like in English, reading Chaucer, or even older Old English, but the other is, as Jundo says, the references to people and events. As I look on social media today, everyone is talking about Will Smith smacking Chris Rock on stage an the Oscars ceremony, and that could be turned into a koan. But 1,000 years from now, no one will know who Will Smith and Chris Rock were, or what an "oscar" was, and so much more.

Gassho,

Ryūmon (Kirk)

sat

[Jundo]

no one will know who Will Smith and Chris Rock were, or what an "oscar" was, and so much more.

Perhaps someone in Ukraine today would not even know.

By the way, Wabo. I heard Lutsk was hit hard today. I am glad that you and your grandmother are okay.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Wabo]

By the way, Wabo. I heard Lutsk was hit hard today. I am glad that you and your grandmother are okay.

[enis]

Thank you very much, Jundo.

It was clarifying to read this.

Gassho, Enis

STLah

[Heiso]

I'm not sure it's worth starting a new thread over, and I'm more posting this in case it is of interest to anyone, but I noticed a new post from Dosho Port yesterday - https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfo...as-passed.html

I'm not well enough versed in the history of the late 19th and early 20th century reforms of Soto Zen to offer much comment on how he has presented that era, and I think Jundo has already addressed in this post and others about how Dosho describes the place of awakening and Shikantaza within the Soto school. But the following quote confused me a little:

Rather than a path of vivid practice verification, the PMSO [Post-Meiji Soto Orthodoxy] only offers to meet people’s belonging needs, a trivialized and truncated dharma belief system, lots of ceremony, and a little zazen

It's not clear to me if he is talking about how Soto Zen is practiced in Japan or the rest of the world. Because if it's the latter, I've sat with various groups over the years and while they differ in the amount of ceremony, none have trivialised the dharma, and all emphasise the importance of zazen. Oh well, maybe I've been lucky!

Apologies for running long.

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

[Jundo]

I'm not sure it's worth starting a new thread over, and I'm more posting this in case it is of interest to anyone, but I noticed a new post from Dosho Port yesterday - https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfo...as-passed.html

I'm not well enough versed in the history of the late 19th and early 20th century reforms of Soto Zen to offer much comment on how he has presented that era, and I think Jundo has already addressed in this post and others about how Dosho describes the place of awakening and Shikantaza within the Soto school. But the following quote confused me a little:

...

It's not clear to me if he is talking about how Soto Zen is practiced in Japan or the rest of the world. Because if it's the latter, I've sat with various groups over the years and while they differ in the amount of ceremony, none have trivialised the dharma, and all emphasise the importance of zazen. Oh well, maybe I've been lucky!

Hi Heiso,

The historical background is basically true, but Dosho puts a certain twist on the story, and leaves out a few facts, that I would contend. Yes, the part about Buddhism being under siege by modernism and Christian missionaries in Japan, and their developing a system basically of ethics for laypeople in response, is all true. It was felt that most lay people in Japan in the late 19th century would have no interest in Zazen practice, so Soto-shu thought about making a chanting practice resembling Pure Land Buddhism, and finally published a cut and paste book of Dogen (the Shushogi) that is basically Dogen with all the Zazen cut out. That is all true.

However, it is incorrect to say that most in Soto-shu ever rejected "Koans." No, Dogen's writings (even the Shushogi) are wall to wall Koans, even with regard to ethics. What was rejected by most (not all) in Soto Zen was "Koan Introspection Zazen," which is Zazen focused on a Koan or Koan phrase. Yes, the Soto-shu felt that most ordinary Japanese would not take up a Zazen practice, that is true. But, it was felt by most in Soto-shu, the Zazen that most average Japanese people would struggle with was mostly Shikantaza (and the Rinzai folks came to the very same conclusion about their Koan Introspection Zazen, and also made a mostly ethical and arts path for lay people, rather than a Zazen path, for like reasons.)

The emphasis on "awakening" was never lost, even if it was felt that most Japanese lay people could not undertake an intensive practice.

There were several "back to basics" opposition groups to this watered down Zen (which, by the way, still largely exists in Japan, where 98% of Buddhism is centered on temples as places for funerals for family ancestors, not Zazen or most other Buddhist practices). Dosho makes it sound like the main resistance to these changes came from Harada Daiun Roshi and Yasutani Hakuun Roshi, who advocated Koan Introspection Zazen, and who are the source of all the mixed Soto-Rinzai lineages in America and elsewhere in the west today. In fact, theirs was a very small minority movement within Soto-shu in Japan, and largely remains so. Most Soto Zen folks who advocated a "return to Zazen" even for lay folks emphasized Shikantaza, such as Homeless Kodo Sawaki (whom he briefly mentions), not Koan Introspection.

In any case, that was and is the situation in Japan. The Americas and Europe are very different. Apart from Japanese families who practice Soto Zen as their family tradition inherited from Japan, the vast majority of teachers and students are convert Zennies much more interested in Zazen, serious lay practice and Buddhist teachings. So, Dosho wants to say that the only "serious" Zen practice is that advocated by the Harada-Yasutani Koan Introspection people that he likes, but it is not true. People like Kodo Sawaki advocated a serious Shikantaza practice for lay folks, and it is very much alive and powerful too, and centered on awakening and authentic practice-realization in this life.

On a separate matter, Dosho Port also left another important fact out of a different recent essay. It bothers me when he does. He wanted to make it sound as if Dogen took the title of his writings, Shobogenzo, from a book written by Dahui, the great inventor of Koan Introspection Zazen, which was also called "Shobogenzo." Dosho wrote this:

I first heard rumors of Dahui’s Shobogenzo in the early 1980s and have been waiting eagerly to get my hands on it ever since, so am delighted that Shambhala has published it now. You might recognize the title – Dogen (1200-1253) borrowed it for his magnum opus. ... In any case, the common story nowadays is that Dogen borrowed Dahui’s title in order to straighten things out about the subtle, true dharma. But maybe Dogen was in such awe of the old master that he wanted to imitate him. After all, Dogen borrowed Dahui’s title twice [for Shobogenzo and the Shobogenzo-Zuimonki, also Shinji-Shobogenzo, attributed to Dogen].
https://www.patheos.com/blogs/wildfo...ue-dharma.html

It is amazing to me that Dosho leave out one important fact. I wrote about it elsewhere:

A small point, as I have seen some commentary online that Dogen Zenji took the title of his Shobogenzo, also called the "Treasury of the True Dharma Eye" (or "Treasury of the Eye of True Teaching" as T. Cleary has it) from this book's title by Dahui. That's actually very unlikely. Although both Dahui and Dogen were gifted teachers with their own styles, and their writings are wonderful, they had very different styles, and Dogen, in portions of his Shobogenzo, was actually very critical of Dahui from the point of view of those differences. It is also unlikely that Dogen knew of this work by Dahui or, at least, he never quotes from it in his writings.

However, most importantly, the title "Shobogenzo" is famous in Zen from many centuries before EITHER Dogen or Dahui, and refers to the famous Koan of the legendary origin of the Zen lineage, when the Buddha raised a flower and Mahākāśyapa smiled, whereupon the Buddha declared, "I possess the treasury of the true Dharma eye (shobogenzo), the wondrous mind of nirvana, the subtle dharma-gate born of the formlessness of true form, not established on words and letters, a special transmission outside the teaching. I bequeath it to Mahakasyapa." The phrase is thus as common in Zen as "he shoots, he scores" at a basketball game and is found used many, many places in Zen writings by many Zen writers of the past. If someone is discussing the common source and true origin of this shared title, they should not leave that important point out! (Not to mention that the real "True Origin" and "Common Source" of these fine teachings is the true "True Dharma Eye" smile.)

So, Dosho maybe left a few important points out.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Tai Do]

With the risk of going very very off the topic here, as someone who is also interested in nembutsu and Pure Land as expressions of zen-like no duality, I wonder how this practice of recitation of Shakyamuni or the nembutsu was viewed by the 19th Century Soto teachers who proposed it?
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

[Jundo]

With the risk of going very very off the topic here, as someone who is also interested in nembutsu and Pure Land as expressions of zen-like no duality, I wonder how this practice of recitation of Shakyamuni or the nembutsu was viewed by the 19th Century Soto teachers who proposed it?
Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah

If I recall, they primarily thought that it would just be easier for lay folks compared to a Zazen practice, and that it would be received much the same as "Namu Amida Butsu" for the Jodo folks and "Namu Ho Renge Kyo" for the Nichiren folks. However, the idea was rejected because, well, Soto is not Pure Land or Nichiren. A scholar writes:

The Sōtō Headquarters (Sōtōshū shūmuchō) soon took measures to create a distinctly Sōtō approach to lay proselytization. In 1878 it published the Sōtō kyōkai kaishū nikka zukyō (Daily Chanting Sutras for Sōtō Teaching Assembly Congregations) designed to standardize ritual at all Sōtō temples. At about this time it commissioned Tsuji Kenkō, one of the highest ranking Sōtō clerics to standardize the teachings for the laity. His lengthy manual, Sōtō kyōkai sekkyō taii narabini shi’nan (A Summary of the Sermons of the Sōtō Teaching Assembly Together with Guidelines), was published in three installments between 1879 and 1881 (Sōtōshū sensho kankōkai 1982a: 17–103). Its main feature is the implementation of the Shaka nenbutsu, or recitation of the name of Śākyamuni (namu Shakamuni Butsu), as the standard for lay practice. It taught that by reciting the Shaka nenbutsu, one is assured of the immediate attainment of Jakkōdo – the Buddha-land of Eternally Tranquil Light. This was clearly a response to the perceived lack of a simple lay teaching and practice, one that would help Sōtō compete for followers with other Buddhist schools and, especially, from the proselytizing efforts of Christian missionaries. This Śākyamuni recitation had many proponents among Sōtō priests, and there is evidence that its practice was fairly widespread. In addition to Tsuji, another influential and high-ranking Sōtō teacher, Sugawa Kōgen put forth a similar teaching in a widely-read tract (Sōtōshū sensho kankōkai 1982b: 1–16). In the end, however, rather than solving the problem as intended, these texts served as the catalyst for passionate debates concerning the ultimate doctrinal identity of Sōtō. Tsuji’s advocacy of a simple nenbutsu recitation, together with his adoption of Pure Land idiom drew the criticism that this teaching was a cheap imitation of Pure Land practices and had no basis in the Sōtō tradition. Thus, despite Tsuji’s manual having been initially authorized for use by the Sōtō Headquarters, this approach was ultimately abandoned.

Amida

At the same time that Tsuji and Sugawa were advocating a Shaka nenbutsu, other Sōtō priests sought a more accessible lay teaching through the adoption of practices normally associated with those of the Pure Land schools. This was so widespread that Ikeda Eishun could write that the Amida Sutra was the usual scripture used by early Meiji period Sōtō priests when proselytizing, and that they taught the chanting of the Amida nenbutsu and the reliance upon Other-power (tariki) for rebirth in the Pure Land (Ikeda 1994: 394–395). The two most comprehensive attempts to systematize and implement this Sōtō-Pure Land fusion were by the Sōtō priest and prolific author Yoshioka Shingyō and by the highly influential lay teacher Ōuchi Seiran. Yoshioka left his native Izumo in the late 1870’s in order to spread the Buddhist teachings as an itinerant priest among the common people of the Tōhoku area of northeastern Japan. His unique blend of Zen and Pure Land was certainly influenced by his close relationship with Ōuchi. In his remarkable text, the Tōjō zaike kedōgi (Rules for the Education and Guidance of the Sōtō Laity), composed between 1884 and 1885, This might seem extraordinary to a modern proclivity to accept contemporary doctrinal divisions between Buddhist schools as guides to what Sōtō priests actually taught, and to our concomitant proclivity to ignore the fluidity of pansectarian practices before the Meiji period. If this is so, the fact that Ōuchi’s recommendations in the Zaike kedōgi were actually accepted by the Sōtō authorities (where Tsuji’s had been recently rejected) and were printed virtually verbatim in the school’s first Sōtōshū shūsei (Sōtō Regulations) in 1885 will appear all the more surprising. In the introduction to Article Four, entitled “Summary of the Teachings of the Sōtō School” (Sōtōshū shūkyō taii), the teachings were divided into two paths – one for priests and one for the laity. The monastic path was based on jiriki, and was encapsulated in the phrase “solely through one’s own power, one becomes a Buddha in this very body” (tanjun jiriki, sokushin jōbutsu). In contrast, the lay path was based on tariki, and was described as an “exclusive practice based on a power other (than one’s own, leading to) rebirth in a single thought” (senju tariki ichinen ōjō).

Although these regulations were submitted to, and approved by, the Minister of Internal Affairs (Naimu Daijin) in May of 1885, the adoption of “the teachings of Amida” (midahō) as the path for the Sōtō laity caused such furor within some segments of the Sōtō priesthood, and drew such derision from other Buddhist groups, that a mere three months after its promulgation, the Sōtō Headquarters was forced to issue a special notification repealing Article Four.

https://www.academia.edu/8041424/Ort...%8Dt%C5%8D_Zen

Gassho, J

stlah

[Tai Do]

Thank you, Jundo. It really surprises me to see Soto adoption of jiriki and tariki nomenclature, as it seem so dualistic for Zen.
Gassho,
Satlah

[Jundo]

Thank you, Jundo. It really surprises me to see Soto adoption of jiriki and tariki nomenclature, as it seem so dualistic for Zen.
Gassho,
Satlah

Oh, you know that Chan/Zen and Pure Land Practices are very much mixed on much of the Asian continent. For those who look to find some common ground (I would say that most ordinary believers do not), the answer is generally to find the "Pure Land" as not a place, as Mind, as the transcendence of self/other, inside out, and such.

Gassho, J

stlah

[Tai Do]

Oh, you know that Chan/Zen and Pure Land Practices are very much mixed on much of the Asian continent. For those who look to find some common ground (I would say that most ordinary believers do not), the answer is generally to find the "Pure Land" as not a place, as Mind, as the transcendence of self/other, inside out, and such.

Gassho, J

stlah

Thanks, Jundo; I agree that the Pure Land is a metaphor for the Mind. I don’t know how is the official position of Pure Land in Asia, Europe or North America, but here in Brazil the texts I read in the Pure Land pages are exactly in this direction, linking Zen and Pure Land - they even sit Zazen (don’t know if Shikantaza) in Brasília’s Shin Temple.

When we recite the name of Buddha, Buddha Amitabha is our own nature, the Pure Land is the Pure Land of our own mind. Anyone can attentively recite the name of the Buddha, thought after thought, and by concentrating more and more deeply, he will always find the Buddha Amitabha appearing in his own mind. It is not necessary to look for the Pure Land far away, a hundred thousand lands beyond. Therefore, if the mind is pure, the earth is pure. If the mind is defiled, the earth is defiled. If a bad thought comes to mind, then many obstacles will appear. If a good thought arises, peace will be everywhere. So heaven and hell are all in our own mind.

http://jodoshinshu.com.br/budismo-terra-pura/zen-e-terra-pura/

Gassho,
Mateus
Satlah