Is there more to Zen than Zazen?

[Zenkon]

Ok, let me put on my helmet and dive for my fox hole before the bombing starts. I struggled with zazen for a long time, until I stopped trying to "add" this or subtract "that", and learned to just accept, without evaluating, everything just "as it is". And, I think I am beginning to "get it". However, everything "as it is" means that I often feel angry, greedy, jealous. Our Precepts guide us to "live in a healthy and helping way", to "live in generosity", to "refrain from anger". Yet, do we pay enough attention to HOW to accomplish these things? What causes us to become angry, greedy, jealous? Is it the outside world, or is it within ourselves - do we make ourselves angry? Do we need to address these unwholesome emotions directly, or does zazen indirectly provide the answer? Or, perhaps, have I simply completely missed something.

Gassho

Zenjon

sat/lah

[Suuko]

Zazen helped me to see the anger coming but I don't practise Zazen not to be angry. I think that if you do get angry, observe the root of it and work on it.

Gassho,
Sat,
Suuko.

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[Kokuu]

Hi Zenkon

During Zazen we watch emotions arise and pass, as well as thoughts and sensations. I imagine that few of us act on our anger during Zazen, although thoughts may arise about doing so.

For me, this is the way, watching emotions arise and pass without clutching at them or needing to act on them, and the precepts also help us not to act in ways that may lead to more suffering for both ourselves and others.

Does this mean we will never act out of anger? Absolutely not, but the more we become aware of the signs of anger (or other emotions) arising, and we are able to be with it without needing to act, and the consequences of acting out of anger, the less hold I believe it will have on us.

If we need to work with a psychologist to help with anger issues that are affecting our life or the lives of other around us, this is not something Zen has a problem with, but for most of us I think that sitting practice, observing the precepts and being aware of the chain of emotion, action and consequence can help us work with feelings as they arise.

Apologies for running long.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Bion]

Ok, let me put on my helmet and dive for my fox hole before the bombing starts. I struggled with zazen for a long time, until I stopped trying to "add" this or subtract "that", and learned to just accept, without evaluating, everything just "as it is". And, I think I am beginning to "get it". However, everything "as it is" means that I often feel angry, greedy, jealous. Our Precepts guide us to "live in a healthy and helping way", to "live in generosity", to "refrain from anger". Yet, do we pay enough attention to HOW to accomplish these things? What causes us to become angry, greedy, jealous? Is it the outside world, or is it within ourselves - do we make ourselves angry? Do we need to address these unwholesome emotions directly, or does zazen indirectly provide the answer? Or, perhaps, have I simply completely missed something.

Gassho

Zenjon

sat/lah

I genuinely believe that it is absolutely necessary to understand the relationship between conditions and our actions. Zazen is a manifestation of enlightenment, so it’s free of discrimination or judgment, expectation or grasping, but it lasts as long as it lasts. Enlightenment is not permanent, which is why we continue practicing.

How we function in the world is shaped by our continuous effort to manifest the same qualities off the zafu as we do on it. The Precepts show us how the Enlightened person naturally functions in the world (or how we function in zazen), so they can serve as a guide of how to act when our impulse is to be and do otherwise. But it takes continuous work.

“Everything as it is” means, I believe, understanding that every moment is perfectly complete and unchangeable, so we can merely observe it, experience it, accept it, learn from it and resolve to create the conditions for better future moments while understanding how the conditions for what we experience now were created.

Sorry for running so long.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Shinshi]

First I want to say I really like Kokuu's post. Pay attention to him.

I'll just add:

---
Zen, what is it good for? Absolutely Nothing! Say it again. Said, Zen, huh (good God, y'all) What is it good for? Absolutely nothing, just say it again!
---

Sorry.

We hear this a lot in Zen and it is true. Zen is good for nothing. If we go into Zen hoping to find the answer, to find the solution to life's problems we are attached to an outcome and doomed to be disappointed. And it is a valuable teaching.

But, at this point in my practice, I do think benefits accrue as we practice. I think practice is such a great word to describe what we do because as we sit and let thoughts of anger, greed or jealousy come and go we, at some level, practice with dealing with them. Letting them go and giving them space. At least this has been my experience.

I struggle with anger. But I have found, over time as I have sat on my cushion, I have gotten better at dealing with anger as it arises. I used to a past master at pouring gasoline on the anger fire. But as I have continued to sit I have found I can catch my old friend anger as he bubbles up. And most days I can find a little space to recognize that anger is arising and I can work with it, and let it go - rather than letting anger overwhelm me. And I think Zen practice is how I am able to do that.

For a whole host of reasons in my life I think anger will always revisit me. But Zen practice gives me some better awareness of what tends to lead to the creation of my anger, and what I can do to intercede so that I don't go off the rails on the crazy (angry) train. (Two song references in one post!)

At least this is what I think today.

-sorry to run long

Gassho, Shinshi

SaT-LaH

[Mrcpt11]

I came to this Sangha seeking relief from depression and anxiety, which often manifests itself as anger. I soon realized that Zazen was not a cure per se to my issues, but that it was a radical acceptance of life as it is. Now, I have found that the practice of "letting thoughts and emotions flow in and out like clouds" and not engaging or resisting them while sitting Zazen has helped me to recognize negative thoughts, emotions, and stressors in my everyday life. I will add that I am also in talk therapy and take medication for my depression and anxiety. So, I believe that medication helps soften the physiological reactions to stressors and depression, while Zazen helps me to not engage with the "bad stuff" that comes into my head. I don't think we can ever stop emotions like anger from coming into our heads, but we can take away their power by not engaging and simultaneously recognizing the factors that may make them manifest in the first place.

Gassho,
William
sattoday

[Yamabushi]

However, everything "as it is" means that I often feel angry, greedy, jealous. Our Precepts guide us to "live in a healthy and helping way", to "live in generosity", to "refrain from anger". Yet, do we pay enough attention to HOW to accomplish these things? What causes us to become angry, greedy, jealous? Is it the outside world, or is it within ourselves - do we make ourselves angry? Do we need to address these unwholesome emotions directly, or does zazen indirectly provide the answer? Or, perhaps, have I simply completely missed something.

Gassho

Zenjon

sat/lah

Who is this "I" that gets angry?

Anger is an emotion. Specifically, anger is a secondary emotion of fear, but sometimes comes as a result of witnessing injustice. Fear/anger is generated by the Sympathetic System of the brain as a defense mechanism. The brain crates a sort of radar/early warning system such as you might find on a ship. The brain is an organ and all organs of the body has the same basic function - keep the body alive.

What happens is we become conditioned from birth to identify with the thoughts and emotions generated by the brain. We identify with the radar (aka "Ego") as if the radar system were the whole ship. This creates dualism.

Shikantaza if the specific version of zazen ("Za" meaning "sitting" and "Zen" meaning "Meditation") practiced in the Soto school. I found using the R.A.I.N. method during Shikantaza helps with anger. Recognize the thought feeling ("There is anger"). Acknowledge the thought/feeling ("Dear Anger, thank you for manifesting as to warn me of danger"). Investigate the thought/feeling ("Why does anger manifest? What will happen if the anger is allowed to manifest?"). Non-Identification (Anger has manifested. However, this emotion is not me. It is my brain trying to tell me something which may or may not be true).

Gassho,

-Jared

[Jundo]

Shikantaza if the specific version of zazen ("Za" meaning "sitting" and "Zen" meaning "Meditation") practiced in the Soto school. I found using the R.A.I.N. method during Shikantaza helps with anger. Recognize the thought feeling ("There is anger"). Acknowledge the thought/feeling ("Dear Anger, thank you for manifesting as to warn me of danger"). Investigate the thought/feeling ("Why does anger manifest? What will happen if the anger is allowed to manifest?"). Non-Identification (Anger has manifested. However, this emotion is not me. It is my brain trying to tell me something which may or may not be true).

I would say to not do so during Zazen. That is not Shikantaza. When sitting Shikantaza, just sit Shikantaza. Maybe it is okay once in awhile to notice, for example, "Oh, I am having an angry etc. thought right now," but then let it go, and return to sitting Shikantaza.

However, before or after Zazen, learn to develop such sensitivity. What you describe is very close to Nurturing Seeds Practice, one of our recommended practices around here ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?6540-RECOMMENDED-DAILY-Nurturing-Seeds-PRACTICE

I would add to this discussion too, that we must never forget the Precepts. Zazen is the Precepts, the Precepts are Zazen, one nurtures and supports the other. So, we do not only sit Shikantaza, but also engage in many other good things ... letting go excess desires, anger, jealousies and the like. When such emotions arise, do not play their game, do not grab on, do not buy what they are selling ... let them go.

Some very nice advice in this thread.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Sorry to run long

[Rich]

One thing I really admired about gautama buddha is when he was verbally abused he didn’t react. He would allow the person to finish and then respond in a way to cause the person to see what he was doing. This person can be outside you or inside you.

Sat/lah




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[Synjin]

One thing I really admired about gautama buddha is when he was verbally abused he didn’t react. He would allow the person to finish and then respond in a way to cause the person to see what he was doing. This person can be outside you or inside you.

Sat/lah




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"One day, the Buddha and a large following of monks and nuns were passing through a village. The Buddha chose a large shade tree to sit beneath so the group could rest awhile out of the heat. He often chose times like these to teach, and so he began to speak. Soon, villagers heard about the visiting teacher and many gathered around to hear him.

One surly young man stood to the side, watching, as the crowd grew larger and larger. To him, it seemed that there were too many people traveling from the city to his village, and each had something to sell or teach. Impatient with the bulging crowd of monks and villagers, he shouted at the Buddha, "Go away! You just want to take advantage of us! You teachers come here to say a few pretty words and then ask for food and money!"

But the Buddha was unruffled by these insults. He remained calm, exuding a feeling of loving-kindness. He politely requested that the man come forward. Then he asked, "Young sir, if you purchased a lovely gift for someone, but that person did not accept the gift, to whom does the gift then belong?"

The odd question took the young man by surprise. "I guess the gift would still be mine because I was the one who bought it."

"Exactly so," replied the Buddha. "Now, you have just cursed me and been angry with me. But if I do not accept your curses, if I do not get insulted and angry in return, these curses will fall back upon you—the same as the gift returning to its owner."

The young man clasped his hands together and slowly bowed to the Buddha. It was an acknowledgement that a valuable lesson had been learned. And so the Buddha concluded for all to hear, "As a mirror reflects an object, as a still lake reflects the sky: take care that what you speak or act is for good. For goodness will always cast back goodness and harm will always cast back harm."

[Zenkon]

"Thank you" to everyone for the thoughtful and helpful comments and suggestions. Especially, "thank you" to Jundo for the link to the Nurturing Seeds post. It just goes to show how much useful information can be found in the Treeleaf archives if a member just goes and looks. Shame on me.

Gassho

Zenkon

[Jundo]

One thing I really admired about gautama buddha is when he was verbally abused he didn’t react. He would allow the person to finish and then respond in a way to cause the person to see what he was doing.

He had good editors, biographers and PR people.

There is a time to hold one's tongue, a time to speak up. One has to discern what time it is.

One can react and speak up, sometimes quite sharply, while being basically civil and non-violent about it at the same time.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tomás ESP]

Accepting everything as it is does not mean one shouldn't strive for change. You accept, allow and then do what needs to be done. As Jundo often points out, with one eye you see that nothing needs mending, that everything is whole and complete just as it is. With the other one, you see what needs to be done and you go for it, like refraining from feeding the anger. That's what I've understood so far.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Jundo]

Accepting everything as it is does not mean one shouldn't strive for change. You accept, allow and then do what needs to be done. As Jundo often points out, with one eye you see that nothing needs mending, that everything is whole and complete just as it is. With the other one, you see what needs to be done and you go for it, like refraining from feeding the anger. That's what I've understood so far.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH