New Thread: Zen Master or Zen Baka?

[houst0n]

JUNDO: I SPLIT THIS FROM ANOTHER THREAD AS A MASTERFUL QUESTION!


Ryūmon, since you’re here and we’re taking podcast — is it ok if me to ask what’s up with calling Jundo a “zen master” in your podcast intro? To me that is Zenji which is such an insanely high honorific I’ve never even heard it used for a real (currently alive, I mean) human?

I thought was exclusively for dead abbots of the main Soto temples, Dogen and Keizan?

Not that our Jundo is not absolutely lovely, but since we were talking podcast it always really stuck out to me.

No offence meant to either of course, I guess maybe it’s marketing stuff to make it easier to understand for non-zen people or something?

Or am I being too dualistic? Technically, I suppose, my sofa here is also every zen master, right? )

Gassho,
./sat
Neil

[Ryumon]

Ryūmon, since you’re here and we’re taking podcast — is it ok if me to ask what’s up with calling Jundo a “zen master” in your podcast intro? To me that is Zenji which is such an insanely high honorific I’ve never even heard it used for a real (currently alive, I mean) human?

I thought was exclusively for dead abbots of the main Soto temples, Dogen and Keizan?

Not that our Jundo is not absolutely lovely, but since we were talking podcast it always really stuck out to me.

No offence meant to either of course, I guess maybe it’s marketing stuff to make it easier to understand for non-zen people or something?

Or am I being too dualistic? Technically, I suppose, my sofa here is also every zen master, right? )

I feel really bad that I can’t specifically point you to the episode where we discuss this term, bu it think it’s this one:

https://www.zen-of-everything.com/61

I agree that it is a bit problematic, but we did explain it. I just can’t remember every episode because there have been so many. In short, it’s master in the sense of teacher. P,us Jundo’s book is The Zen Master’s Dance…

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

[houst0n]

I feel really bad that I can’t specifically point you to the episode where we discuss this term, bu it think it’s this one:

https://www.zen-of-everything.com/61

I agree that it is a bit problematic, but we did explain it. I just can’t remember every episode because there have been so many. In short, it’s master in the sense of teacher. P,us Jundo’s book is The Zen Master’s Dance…

Gassho,
Ryūmon (Kirk)
Sat

Doh, must have missed that one! Cheers matey)

N

[Jundo]

Ryūmon, since you’re here and we’re taking podcast — is it ok if me to ask what’s up with calling Jundo a “zen master” in your podcast intro? To me that is Zenji which is such an insanely high honorific I’ve never even heard it used for a real (currently alive, I mean) human?

I thought was exclusively for dead abbots of the main Soto temples, Dogen and Keizan?

Not that our Jundo is not absolutely lovely, but since we were talking podcast it always really stuck out to me.

l

Hi Neil,

You are referring to Zenji (禅師), as in Dogen Zenji, or my Dharma Grandfather, Niwa Zenji, who has the title for having been the Abbot of Head Temple Eiheiji, Dogen's temple, and the Head Priest of the Soto-shu. In Japanese Soto-shu, this is a title usually reserved for the Founders, Dogen and Keizan, and the Abbots (living or deceased) of the Head Temples. The first Kanji Character means "Zen" and the second (師) just means an "expert, teacher, master, model or a military leader."

https://dictionary.writtenchinese.com/worddetail/shi/2592/1/2

It became a rank within the Soto-shu church, and I have no interest in that or being called that, and I will most likely never be the Abbot of Eiheiji.

Kirk and I discussed this, and just use the English term in the sense of "master carpenter, licensed master plumber, master violinist" or "maestro" for the conductor of an orchestra or (for our Spanish and Italian speaker) any accredited school teacher. I often say this:

"In my view, "master" is someone with some "mastery" in an art or tradition to pass on and pass down ... from carpentry to medicine to martial arts to Zen Buddhary. It need not mean the "master" is perfect (one can be a "master carpenter," yet not every corner will always be smooth; a "master surgeon" cannot cure every patient, and even the most gifted may sometimes make a bad cut). However, one should be pretty darn skilled."

So, I would describe myself that way, although I do not claim that it makes me any more special than any teacher or orchestra conductor. I am the master plumber around here. In fact, Zen cannot be truly "mastered" any more than one can be a master seaman and have mastered the sea.

As to Roshi, Osho, Monk, Priest, Sensei and a lot of other old terms, you might find this old post helpful on other terms common in Zen and often misunderstood:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14568-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Who-Is-a-Priest&p=182277&viewfull=1#post182277

It is ridiculous that anyone in the West should call themselves "Roshi," as many Zen teachers do in the west. It just means "Old Teacher," and the truth in Soto in Japan is that a "Roshi" is not any official rank, and just a term of respect for any older priest. It has become an "official" term only in the West. Our dear friend Daiho Hilbert Roshi in the Matsuoka lineage gifted me a few years ago with some recognition as a "Roshi,", which I accepted out of respect for him, but I would never call myself that. I also chuckle when I hear some western priests refer to themselves as "Mary Smith Roshi," a bit like a judge in court calling herself "My Honor Mary Smith."

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15535-Special-Zazenkai-with-Daiho-Hilbert-and-Jundo-Roshi-Ceremony

The term I really appreciate for any priest/monk is "Sangha companion" (僧侶, "Soryo") and for a Zen teacher is Zenchishiki (a "good wise friend" along the Way, 善知識, Sanskrit kalyanamitra)

I usually say that my wife and kids call me "Baka" most of the time, a Japanese term meaning DUMB, FOOLISH, STUPID, LACKING, CRAZY, and that is probably the best.

https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/baka-meaning/

Gassho, Jundo Baka

STLah

PS - It is a good topic, I will make its own thread ...

[Jundo]

PS - I recall the fellow from Seinfeld who insisted on being called "Maestro" ...

https://youtu.be/y2cr60ED2yo

[Rich]

I remember that one. Seinfeld never gets old, Maestro. That’s the italian word for teacher

Sat/lah





Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

I remember that one. Seinfeld never gets old, Maestro. That’s the italian word for teacher

I know that you are active with a Kwan Um group, Korean Zen, and they call many many of their teachers as "Zen Master Something Something." I think that is the Kwan Um's own doing, and not so standard in Korea ...

https://kwanumzen.org/our-teachers

Me, just call me Jundo, but don't call me late for dinner.

Gassho, J

[Kotei]

Hello,
when talking about Jundo, I am referring to him as 'my teacher',
but Zen Master feels very natural to me, too.

Maybe it's because of how skilled craft is organized in Germany and other parts of Europe.
Carpenter, plumber, masons, electricians... start their worklife with an apprenticeship in a company. In parallel, they visit a school.
After about 3 years and an exam, they are a 'Geselle'... an assistant, guiding the apprentices, working in a company.
They can visit a 'Meisterschule' a Master school, where they learn how to run a company, plan their work and more.
After another exam, now being a master, they are now allowed to run their own independent company, guiding apprentices and assistants.

So after studying and practicing for years, the assistant might receive Dharma transmission, the recognition of the Master to being able to teach independently. Being a Master, running their own place, theirself.

Gassho,
Kotei sat/lah today.

[Jundo]

...
Carpenter, plumber, masons, electricians...

I did once install a new sink in our bathroom. It only leaks a little, and I fixed most of that with plumber's tape.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Rich]

You are not my Master but you do appear to be the Master of yourself as demonstrated by your humility, wisdom, love and compassion.

Thanks for all you do here.



Sat/lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[houst0n]

Oh, I totally missed this thread! Sorry!

Hi Neil,

You are referring to Zenji (禅師), as in Dogen Zenji, or my Dharma Grandfather, Niwa Zenji, who has the title for having been the Abbot of Head Temple Eiheiji, Dogen's temple, and the Head Priest of the Soto-shu. In Japanese Soto-shu, this is a title usually reserved for the Founders, Dogen and Keizan, and the Abbots (living or deceased) of the Head Temples. The first Kanji Character means "Zen" and the second (師) just means an "expert, teacher, master, model or a military leader."

https://dictionary.writtenchinese.com/worddetail/shi/2592/1/2

It became a rank within the Soto-shu church, and I have no interest in that or being called that, and I will most likely never be the Abbot of Eiheiji.

Kirk and I discussed this, and just use the English term in the sense of "master carpenter, licensed master plumber, master violinist" or "maestro" for the conductor of an orchestra or (for our Spanish and Italian speaker) any accredited school teacher. I often say this:

"In my view, "master" is someone with some "mastery" in an art or tradition to pass on and pass down ... from carpentry to medicine to martial arts to Zen Buddhary. It need not mean the "master" is perfect (one can be a "master carpenter," yet not every corner will always be smooth; a "master surgeon" cannot cure every patient, and even the most gifted may sometimes make a bad cut). However, one should be pretty darn skilled."

Totally agree; actually in my country teachers traditionally were called Masters, and weirdly enough also younger males (which caused some fairly predictable problems to a friend of mine with the surname bates). I usually refer to the finance people at my company as the 'Master of coin' so I guess it's more Applicable than I thought :} (Also, in Germany, they have a 'meister' which is a kind of certification in various trades, which requires demonstrative mastery over your subject (e.g, joinery))

I think I got a bit prejudiced against the term after seeing a bunch of obvious fakes a few years ago, and then somehow got it mixed up with Zenji in my head...

So, I would describe myself that way, although I do not claim that it makes me any more special than any teacher or orchestra conductor. I am the master plumber around here. In fact, Zen cannot be truly "mastered" any more than one can be a master seaman and have mastered the sea.

As to Roshi, Osho, Monk, Priest, Sensei and a lot of other old terms, you might find this old post helpful on other terms common in Zen and often misunderstood:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14568-SIT-A-LONG-with-JUNDO-Who-Is-a-Priest&p=182277&viewfull=1#post182277

It is ridiculous that anyone in the West should call themselves "Roshi," as many Zen teachers do in the west. It just means "Old Teacher," and the truth in Soto in Japan is that a "Roshi" is not any official rank, and just a term of respect for any older priest. It has become an "official" term only in the West. Our dear friend Daiho Hilbert Roshi in the Matsuoka lineage gifted me a few years ago with some recognition as a "Roshi,", which I accepted out of respect for him, but I would never call myself that. I also chuckle when I hear some western priests refer to themselves as "Mary Smith Roshi," a bit like a judge in court calling herself "My Honor Mary Smith."

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?15535-Special-Zazenkai-with-Daiho-Hilbert-and-Jundo-Roshi-Ceremony

The term I really appreciate for any priest/monk is "Sangha companion" (僧侶, "Soryo") and for a Zen teacher is Zenchishiki (a "good wise friend" along the Way, 善知識, Sanskrit kalyanamitra)

I usually say that my wife and kids call me "Baka" most of the time, a Japanese term meaning DUMB, FOOLISH, STUPID, LACKING, CRAZY, and that is probably the best.

https://www.tofugu.com/japanese/baka-meaning/

Gassho, Jundo Baka

STLah

PS - It is a good topic, I will make its own thread ...

Cheers+Gassho,
./sat
Neil Baka

[Shokai]

refer to the finance people at my company as the 'Master of coin'

Having worked in Engineering 25 years, I prefer to call them bean counters

gassho, Shokai
stlah

[Archpoet]

People are usually shocked when they find out that I am not a Master Electrician.