Uncertain

[Guest]

I was going to speak with Jundo privately about this, but figured it may be useful to others. I find that my following of Zen Buddhism is leaving me feeling alone, disconnected and empty. I feel as if there is no structure, just nothing. I feel no joy in it, I just feel cut off. Has anyone else experienced this?

Gassho

John

SatToday

[Gregor]

Hey John, I have dealt with that. Dark spots, lack of faith etc. Hell I stopped practicing for 10 years. Would love to hear more before trying to offer advice. But I would like to just say that the only way out is through it. We can probabley grow and learn the most from the hard times.

Also we are not alone, many Dharma friends here to give encouragment and support.

Gassho

Greg
ST

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[Jundo]

I was going to speak with Jundo privately about this, but figured it may be useful to others. I find that my following of Zen Buddhism is leaving me feeling alone, disconnected and empty. I feel as if there is no structure, just nothing. I feel no joy in it, I just feel cut off. Has anyone else experienced this?

Gassho

John

SatToday

Hi John,

It is possible that some folks need more structure, more of a "program" and targets, or more rules than others. If so, that may be the kind of Buddhism best suited to you.

However, I also remind folks of this, something I bring up again and again ...

SIT-A-LONG with Jundo: WHAT's NEXT!?!

Almost each week someone asks me, "What comes next in my practice? How do I deepen it? What should I do now? What book should I read with all the secrets? I feel like something is still missing and that I must do more."

But how can I respond to such a question when the very heart of this Path is learning to live and be this life radically FREE OF THE NEED FOR 'WHAT'S NEXT', LIBERATED OF 'SOMETHING MORE THAT NEED BE DONE', FULFILLED OF 'ANYTHING MISSING'!

More here: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...-s-NEXT%21-%21

But even so, plenty to study, to practice, to dive into ... so there is much to do!

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Nengyoku]

Jundo has good advice, but it doesn't exactly answer what I thought of when I read your post, so in my own (possibly misguided) attempt to try and help I would like to focus on one thing you said.

I find that my following of Zen Buddhism is leaving me feeling alone, disconnected and empty.

Whereas the rest of your post points towards a lack of structure - which is what Jundo answered so aptly - this sentence speaks more to a personal aspect of Zen. Feeling alone and feeling unstructured are two very different things. If this is more what you meant, then please read on, but if not feel free to disregard me.

There was a point in my practice that I was beginning to feel fairly alone. Much of Buddhism seems to almost borderline solipsism, from a certain point of view.
And one day I had a realization that made these feelings go away. I couldn't put it into words at the time (which was fine, sometimes words make it worse), but now I have.
I will try my best to sum up this idea.

In Shokai's 29th Gate of Dharma Illumination I wrote:

Every action, intentioned for good or ill, done unto me in the past has nudged me towards this path.
What incredible kindness.
How could I ever repay that?

It is kind of basic, but just take a second to appreciate that the spot you are at right now is the spot you are meant to be.
And every person you have ever interacted with has led you to this spot.
Take a second to think of all of your loved ones, especially the ones you maybe haven't thought about in a bit. Thank them real quick for getting you here.
Take a second to think of everyone you have had troubles with, people even you have outright despised at the time. Thank them for getting you here.

And then, take a second to thank each of the people and the countless conditions that made those people exactly who they were at that time so that they could help you get to the point you are at right now.
This world is so immensely connected. Every day we come to this forum and post thoughts without realizing how deeply impactful they may be to someone who reads them.
You are so incredibly connected to me, and hearing that you feel alone and disconnected brings me too great sorrow. But I'd bet you wouldn't have considered that impact when you posted this.

We can never be truly alone. Even in separating ourselves from the world we set forth changes that impact others.

Master Ryokan once wrote:

It may seem I have locked myself
Away from the people of the world
And yet
Why is it
I have never ceased to think of them?

I hope you don't feel alone John. Because I feel you right here with me.

Sorry for using so many words.

Gassho,
Nengyoku
Sat

[Shokai]

Hi john;
Have a look at the calendar and the activity going on in the Sitting room at 'Treeleaf Now' You may find a time that you can sit Zazen with folks who feel as alone. We are all beginners and there is no place like now to be with others (not two)

gassho, Shokai
stlah

[Koushi]

I find that my following of Zen Buddhism is leaving me feeling alone, disconnected and empty. I feel no joy in it, I just feel cut off.

Hi John,

I hesitate to give any advice without knowing a bit more; for example, did you feel alone, disconnected, and empty prior to your zen practice—or is this a new development?

To answer your question, however: Absolutely, quite a bit in my life. I'm sure most people have felt this way at some point too, zen practitioner or non. Thinking about my zazen, where it's just practicing with what-is at the time (which always changes), has included loneliness and apathy a lot over the years.

I do believe it was Katagiri Roshi who said, “One can be lonely and not be tossed away by it.” And I think that's what has changed over the years in my life with practice. Slowly learning how to be with the sometimes loneliness, apathy, no-joy—and not being tossed away by it. Of course, it takes (is taking) time, but it is natural to feel these things. (However, if the feeling is more along the lines of depression, that's another story to be addressed!)

Also, like Shokai said, please do have a peek at the Treeleaf NOW calendar. There's quite a few sitting groups, tea houses, and times the sangha comes together where you can practice (or just hang out) with others. From my personal experience, it helped a ton, especially in these last few years of pandemic. You definitely are not alone

Sorry for running long,

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH

[Dogukan]

Hi John,

Thank you for bringing up this question publicly. It may be really useful. People who embraced the Buddhist practice around me (which are very few) felt the same things you mentioned. One of them chose to follow Theravadan tradition, because he needed to have some definitive answers about "big questions" like rebirth, karma, heaven and hell, etc. Zen answers, which emphasized heaven and hell on this earth rather than the existence of heaven or hell, made him feel insecure. The other one simply needed a path with more rituals, ceremonies, etc. So it's obvious that every and each one of us has different needs. We are all unique and inclined towards different paths that appeal to our uniqueness.

As for my personal situation, I did not experience the feeling you describe. I had already come to Zen quite tired of structures and rituals because several years of my life had been spent practicing in a highly structured non-Buddhist spiritual path. Although I knew that this path I was talking about was not suitable for me, I resisted for a long time and I was tired. Therefore, I feel that I am where I need to be since the day I started practicing Zen. But I have to admit, sometimes I find myself missing the old formalities. I used to look at my old teacher as a successor of the saints with incredible spiritual strength, someone who would bring me to enlightenment with a single glance. And I guess Jundo wouldn't like me to consider him that way But such beliefs give a sense of security and it's quite natural that some people need that sense of security.

But in general, without wishing to lay down the law, I suggest you leave this matter to time. A person feels it when he is not at home. But sometimes he thinks so much whether he is at home or not and consequently he starts to ask if he is at home even when he is at home. I'm sure the answer will become clear to you very soon. Best wishes!

Sorry for running long. (Well, this is where I exactly feel disconnected to Zen for example! I feel no joy in speaking briefly. You can find a more structured Buddhist school but alas, there's no chance for me to find another Buddhist path that praises babbling.)

PS: And if your problem is much more about a feeling of loneliness along the way than the -shall we say- "unstructured" character of Zen, you can always write to me. I don't know if it will help, but I see that we've both been here for roughly the same time. We must be going through similar processes. I would be glad if you give me the chance to be with you in these processes.

Deep bows,
Doğukan.
Sat.

[Rousei]

Hello John!

I don't have anything to input beyond what has been said, many things have been said well. I just wanted to say I wish you good luck.

Gassho
Rousei
ST

[Jishin]

I was going to speak with Jundo privately about this, but figured it may be useful to others. I find that my following of Zen Buddhism is leaving me feeling alone, disconnected and empty. I feel as if there is no structure, just nothing. I feel no joy in it, I just feel cut off. Has anyone else experienced this?

Gassho

John

SatToday

This is great news John. You are well on your way to being connected to everything.[emoji39]

Gassho, Jishin, ST, LAH

[Tosei]

Gassho to you, John.

As I left the zendo this morning, the bright moon was behind the clouds and I only saw the clouds. After I bowed, closed the door, and turned back around, not a cloud in the sky. This is our practice.

((sat))

[Bion]

I was going to speak with Jundo privately about this, but figured it may be useful to others. I find that my following of Zen Buddhism is leaving me feeling alone, disconnected and empty. I feel as if there is no structure, just nothing. I feel no joy in it, I just feel cut off. Has anyone else experienced this?

Gassho

John

SatToday

Hi John. Is it because you feel like you don’t fit in with others, since many probably don’t share your beliefs and practice, or is it because you can’t quite see the point in just sitting alone facing a wall? Or does it have to do with not being able to physically be with others?
I will say, feeling cut off might happen when we just can’t seem to connect with others, whose struggles we can’t relate to anymore or who seem to be very different from us. But zen is practiced not just staring at a wall, but laughing with others, enjoying their company, working, walking, dealing with problems..

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Tomás ESP]

You are not alone. Sending you my best wishes

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

[aprapti]

hi John,

you are not the only one.. in the many years of practice i too had those periods.. it changed.

i wish you good luck and the courage to keep going..



aprapti

[Shokai]

This is great news John. You are well on your way to being connected to everything.

[Heiso]

Hi John,

When I first sat with a Zen group many years ago, I think I also struggled with the seeming lack of structure. I kept sitting, reading and started showing up here and after a while it just sort of clicked. The idea that my whole life is my practice began to make much more sense although I still do get times when I feel I'm floundering a little.

I have ADHD and one of the many whacky ways that manifests itself is that I often feel a bit of an outsider anyway but as others have mentioned above, one thing that really helps me is to sit regularly with one of the groups on Treeleaf now. Another is joining in with a reading group (or 6).

If you had a partner during Ango, keeping that conversation about your practice going also helps, or at least it did me. And if you didn't have a partner, feel free to shoot me a message.

Gassho,

Heiso

StLah

- Apologies for running long -