New book about Dogen

[Jundo]

Btw, did Dogen go to China? I've seen some debate on this elsewhere but am not going to buy Heiene's book by that title for $100.

That is another wonderful book by Dr. Heine and the answer is that, of course, he went to China without question. The title is a bit of tongue in cheek. The book primarily looks at the development of the Shobogenzo, and what Dogen actually experienced in China versus what was later claimed that he experienced there (if I recall correctly, as has been awhile since my last reading of this book.)

By the way, scholarly books on Buddhism can be downloaded, usually with the scholar's awareness and tolerance, if something is out of budget for somebody. It is for education use, and does not violate a Precept, in my view, if a scholarly or Buddhist book that someone otherwise cannot easily borrow or find. The book is available here:

https://terebess.hu/zen/mesterek/StevenHeine.html

https://epdf.pub/did-dogen-go-to-china-what-he-wrote-and-when-he-wrote-it1ac847696d0c15804575fab889103c4136684.html

Does lineage really matter? It seems after Ananda the line forward from the Buddha gets pretty sketchy, and in Zen after Boddhidharma and six patriarchs it does as well. . .

The Lineage is pretty solid and well documented back for at least 1000 years, which is pretty good!

However, before that it represents somebody, many someones known and unknown, who kept the flame going, and nurtured Buddhism and the development of Zen, generation by generation. Even if we don't exactly have the names just right ... it is somebody, many somebodies.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Gregor]

Thank you so much for the resources, encouragement and insight. Gonna get reading now.

Gassho,

Greg
ST

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[houst0n]

The only thing (and it's really minor) I'm not so big on at the moment is Heine calls what we usually refer to (being a Nishijima house, here) as "dropping off of body and mind", "casting off of body and mind".

I always kind of thought of 'casting' something off as like, throwing it down or rather *actively* shedding it. Whereas, 'dropping' off seems much more gentle, passive, just letting it go -- like how we just don't interact with our thoughts during zazen instead of actively trying not to think of anything. It subtly changes the way I pictured this, which is good and bad I suppose. I'm still in the 'dropping off' vs 'casting off' camp though, what do my lovely forum-mates think?

Also, in the history of the shobogenzo section they seem to mention every popular version *except* the nishijima/cross one, which I thought was a bit weird; wasn't the Nishijima/Cross edition the first *full* English translation?

Anyway. Enjoy :}
Gassho
./sat+lah
Neil

[Jundo]

Also, in the history of the shobogenzo section they seem to mention every popular version *except* the nishijima/cross one, which I thought was a bit weird; wasn't the Nishijima/Cross edition the first *full* English translation?

l

Hmmm. Steve Heine usually references the Nishijima-Cross in his other books, and quotes it quite often. I don't think it was the first complete in English, but Steve told me it is perhaps the most precise in following the grammar and exact wording of Dogen, although maybe not the most "musical" in sound (Tanahashi is most musical, but somewhat less precise). None of the translations are perfect.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Ryumon]

The only thing (and it's really minor) I'm not so big on at the moment is Heine calls what we usually refer to (being a Nishijima house, here) as "dropping off of body and mind", "casting off of body and mind".

I always kind of thought of 'casting' something off as like, throwing it down or rather *actively* shedding it. Whereas, 'dropping' off seems much more gentle, passive, just letting it go -- like how we just don't interact with our thoughts during zazen instead of actively trying not to think of anything. It subtly changes the way I pictured this, which is good and bad I suppose. I'm still in the 'dropping off' vs 'casting off' camp though, what do my lovely forum-mates think?

As someone who is a writer, and who has worked as a translator, I have been thinking the same thing. It’s probably a tough word to translate precisely, and there are other translations (such as sloughing off). To me, he important element is the somewhat passive dropping rather than the more active casting. It so happens that the next episode of The Zen of Everything will address this concept, so tune in next week

Gassho,
Ryūmon
Sat

[Gregor]

Casting vs Dropping. Seems slow method vs Fast. Casting off feels more Rinzai to me.

I'll stay tuned

Gassho,

G
STlah

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[houst0n]

So I just finished this one, the first half of the book was definitely more interesting (well, to me anyway -- first half: Dogen bio, second half: history/chronology of his writings) and he does get rather.. 'literary' when going into the current understanding of the chronology of the writings and so forth. The final chapter is quite lovely though, about how we can apply 'Dogen zen' as Heine calls it to the current state of the world.

All in all, recommended

Gassho,
./sitting shortly

Neil

[Shokai]

Just received my copy yesterday

gassho, Shokai

[houst0n]

It helps if you have a copy of extensive record and shobogenzo nearby; I got a little frustrated when he routinely would say something like "And in 1.36 of extensive record, he wrote a very beautiful poem about blah blah, and <someone else> wrote a lovely response, here's one line of the response", and so I would go and look up the original, but it got a bit tiresome doing that on every few pages. Anyway, not trying to criticise! Dogen scholars be Dogen scholars. I enjoyed it, and it reminds one that Dogen is something that we can spend the rest of our lives with, which I find very comforting.

The dharma flower turns.

Gassho,
./sat (finally) :}