Do eyes have to be open?

[Ishikawa]

Everywhere I've read about Zen meditation the eyes are required to be half-open. I find it really distracting to have my eyes open and even if I'm staring at a wall I'm constantly searching the patterns in the paint or something else distracting like that.

Is it possible to close the eyes or are they required to be open?

Thank you.

[Nengyoku]

The focus of our Zazen is on just being with whatever is. If your back hurts, then be with that. If the street is noisy, sit with that. And if your eyes are searching for patterns, be with that too.

What I mean is that the expectation that you should sit and be instantly focused and still comes from a place of assuming that is good. But we leave all idea of good and bad at the door, and instead accept whatever comes as it is.

So if your eyes are wandering, then be with that for the moment.

I know you said in the welcoming thread that you are planning to read more books, so I'll say that Opening the Hand of Thought has some good points about this idea. The gist of it is the point of zazen is to return to the moment.
It is okay if your eyes wander, or you fidget a little, or get lost in thought. The victory is in remembering this moment, and returning to it.

Of course, that means also that you shouldn't be letting your eyes wander, or fidgeting, or getting lost in though.


That being said, I am by no means an expert in Zen, just a newbie like you. So please let what others say supercede me when I am wrong.
Welcome to Treeleaf
Sorry to run long.

Gassho,
William
SatLah

[Tai Shi]

Do eyes have to be open?

New to Treeleaf Zendo I found it difficult hold still, keeping eyes slightly closed and after sitting nearly every day feel into position, relax into zazen.
Gassho
sat/ lah


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[Rousei]

Everywhere I've read about Zen meditation the eyes are required to be half-open. I find it really distracting to have my eyes open and even if I'm staring at a wall I'm constantly searching the patterns in the paint or something else distracting like that.

Is it possible to close the eyes or are they required to be open?

Thank you.

Try not to focus on things, relax your eyes and rather than trying to exert yourself outward by looking for patterns or trying to see 'more' or a specific point try to simply take in what is in front of you. If you're focusing on things too much give your mind something to do, this is where counting your breath can be skillful means.

When we focus our sight compared to when we relax our sight it's almost like we zoom in on a point and our peripheral vision becomes smaller. Try and let whatever is in front of you enter your eyes, by doing this you can begin to notice you have peripheral vision. Try to not 'notice' things, in the sense that you are focusing on something or making those distinctions, this is that and that is this. When you focus too much your eyes will dry out fast and you will need to blink more often, but when you relax your eyes and simply gaze this won't happen as often.

If you close your eyes it is much easier to imagine things, or enter into mental states and both of these are illusionary. Many people will take illusionary states as the point to meditation and in some it is but not in shikantaza, we want to see the world, reality, so your eyes need to be open to do that. (This is an unskillful way of putting it).

We also have to keep in mind that if you close your eyes you're more prone to drowsiness, to losing your focus, your back will begin to slouch and head will begin to tilt forward and your mudra will begin to collapse. The purpose of posture is to give you something to focus on, back straight and imagine something pulling you up and eyes partially open, this will keep your mind alert and awake.

I truly wish you great fortune in your practice, may it always continue

あけましておめでとう

Gassho
Mark
ST

[Shokai]

Stop searching, let your eyes be. Head erect, looking down at 45 degee angle with gentle/soft focus, Let the eyes drop. They usually stay at about 2/3 closed. Closing your eyes tends to invite fantasy; we have enough stories to let go of without added more stories.

gassho, Shokai
stlah

[Bion]

Everywhere I've read about Zen meditation the eyes are required to be half-open. I find it really distracting to have my eyes open and even if I'm staring at a wall I'm constantly searching the patterns in the paint or something else distracting like that.

Is it possible to close the eyes or are they required to be open?

Thank you.

There is a great lesson in that, friend. It mirrors everyday life in a magnificent way: distractions are omnipresent and they do to us just what you say they do to you in zazen, except here you notice them acutely. You feel “distracted” because you probably have certain expectations or ideas regarding your sitting and because it might be a new thing, so my only “advice” is to stay with your eyes open and allow yourself to “overcome” this “challenge”, not by trying really hard, but by continuing to sit until there is no more judgment of your sitting. [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Tai Shi]

Do eyes have to be open?

Yea Shokai 45 degrees not searching close eyes leads to fantastic mind. I sit with no desire. In the morning I am fresh, alone, and quiet with friends on my computer or device. Only they are here in my computer. I am alone.
Gassho
sat/ lah


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[Jundo]

As others have said, it is not your eyes which are the problem, but your mind wanting an ideal, pleasing experience. The trick is not to close the eyes, but to keep the eyes open, not running away from the world, but also while sitting in equanimity about what is seen. We do not stop thoughts, but neither do we tangle with them, get lost in trains of thought, or become their prisoner. Our practice, unlike most kinds of meditation, is not to run from the world, but to learn equanimity while in this world.

Here are a couple of talks and explanations, the first from our Beginner's Series (which I hope you will watch right through) ...

Zazen for Beginners (7)

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14889-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%287%29

The Eyes of Zazen: Neither Open Nor Closed

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?19081-The-Eyes-of-Zazen-Neither-Open-Nor-Closed&highlight=eyes+open+closed

Also, this, in which I compare Shikantaza to the alertness of driving down a country road, seeing all that is in front of one, yet obsessed with nothing in particular ... with mind clear ...

Drivin' Dogen - Understanding "Open Spacious Awareness"

I sometimes see everything out in front of me, or maybe notice this or that as it passes. I am not particularly thinking anything, and the mind is clear, alert, just watching the road. I am not daydreaming, I am not sleeping, I am alert and paying awake attention -- but to no one thing in particular. I may notice briefly some things as I pass ... mail box, cow, pretty house, laundry on a line ... but I don't really think about them, and I let them pass from view and keep going with eyes observing everything and nothing.

See if that helps.

.... this is where counting your breath can be skillful means.

We don't count breaths, and is typically done by people who think of meditation as a concentration exercise. Folks who are not yet able to sit in "open awareness" can follow the breaths, feeling the breath enter and exit the nose (but silently, not consciously voicing "in" or "out.") Dogen was extremely critical of breath counting (page 114 here):

https://books.google.co.jp/books?id=dw0IdBImyRYC&pg=PA114&lpg=PA114&dq=dogen%20long%20breaths%20short%20hinayana&source=bl&ots=2940HXrwEf&sig=_Cj7ug5QwqlvU3afBP8M0RXVRyM&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiA5YLNtJLXAhWMu7wKHbVIBjYQ6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q=dogen%20long%20breaths%20short%20hinayana&f=false

Gassho, J

STLah
Sorry to run long

[Tai Shi]

Jundo, why do we not count breath. What do you say and is it the same as Dogen and I think it brings busy mind? I’m only now emerging from counting breath.
Gassho
sat/ lah


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[Rousei]

We don't count breaths, and is typically done by people who think of meditation as a concentration exercise. Folks who are not yet able to sit in "open awareness" can follow the breaths, feeling the breath enter and exit the nose (but silently, not consciously voicing "in" or "out.") Dogen was extremely critical of breath counting (page 114 here):

Gassho

I found it interesting the topic on breathing was a lecture given at Eihei ji, and therefore I assume was aimed at practiced practitioners. My understanding of counting the breaths currently is thus, counting the breaths is something beginners and practiced practitioners can use to help settle the mind. Some long practiced practitioners still count their breaths. It's a useful tool to build concentration, to then drop it completely and sit in open awareness. However, sitting in open awareness is very difficult. So we develop concentration by quieting the mind through breath counting but with the aim to then drop it. The more practiced and developed your concentration the less likely but not entirely unlikely counting the breaths will be useful when sitting, if indeed quieting the mind is something purposeful to be able to then sit in open awareness.

The text seems to suggest, just being aware of the breath by not counting but instead simply following with awareness it's back and fourth flow was Dogens recommendation to the attending Eihei ji monks. The books author even seemed to comment that this comment from Dogen was curious due to counting the breaths prevalence in all schools of Buddhism. I wonder if this was specific advice to monks there? Or if this was his broader beliefs?

I count my breaths at the start of sitting, I'm still very inexperienced so it helps to calm the mind quickly but I drop all counting and then sit in open awareness. I find it difficult to sit for great length in open awareness, it is a difficult thing. I think it is simply a factor of my short timespan of practice. Would you recommend I drop the counting completely even at the start of a sit before dropping it?

Always thankful for your advice Jundo, and am very appreciative of your scholastic linking to texts, they're always very illuminating.

Gassho
Mark
ST

[Jundo]

Gassho

I found it interesting the topic on breathing was a lecture given at Eihei ji, and therefore I assume was aimed at practiced practitioners. My understanding of counting the breaths currently is thus, counting the breaths is something beginners and practiced practitioners can use to help settle the mind. Some long practiced practitioners still count their breaths. It's a useful tool to build concentration, to then drop it completely and sit in open awareness. However, sitting in open awareness is very difficult. So we develop concentration by quieting the mind through breath counting but with the aim to then drop it. The more practiced and developed your concentration the less likely but not entirely unlikely counting the breaths will be useful when sitting, if indeed quieting the mind is something purposeful to be able to then sit in open awareness.

No, I do not teach counting the breaths, and please do not encourage that here. It is a misunderstood crutch for people who think that Shikantaza is a concentration building technique. Following the breath is a sufficient calming and settling technique and then, when a moderate degree of calm, clarity and equanimity is attained (i.e., the mind is no longer storming darkly, caught and wallowing in runaway thoughts and wild emotions), we move to open awareness with equanimity.

Most of the teachers who do encourage breath counting (not all) are from mixed Rinzai-Soto Lineages in which Shikantaza is taken to be a preparatory concentration building exercise in anticipation of Koan Introspection Zazen. Even the Soto Teachers who do so, see it as --not-- Shikantaza. Shunryu Suzuki encouraged beginners to count, but then to move away from breath counting and to practice Shikantaza.

Here at Treeleaf, please do not count the breaths.

[Shunryu Suzuki] I think most of you participate one-week sesshin from tomorrow. So far, we have been practicing counting breathing or following breathing. But maybe tomorrow—from tomorrow, in one-week sesshin, we will, you know, practice shikantaza.

I want to explain, you know, what is shikantaza. Shikantaza is, as you know—excuse me—just to sit, you know. We say “shikantaza.” Just to sit. But there is—if you, you know, it is not proper or it is not enough to say “just to sit.” For an instance, you know, everything is just there, you know. Things are just where they are. ...

But usually in counting breathing or following breathing, you feel as if you are doing something, you know—you are following breathing, and you are counting breathing. This is, you know, why counting breathing or following breathing practice is, you know, for us it is some preparation—preparatory practice for shikantaza because for most people it is rather difficult to sit, you know, just to sit. When we haven’t good, you know, breathing it is rather difficult to just to sit. Of course, even though you have pain in your legs, that is just to sit [laughs], you know. Pain should be just pain. Not—not much extra fancy [laughing] interpretation of pain. “My legs”—if you say “my legs,” that is extra. “Legs” is enough [laughs, laughter]. Then pain is just pain, you know. Pain—if you pain, if you say “pain,” the pain include everything. And if pain exist—pain exist just like pain as a whole being, that is not pain anymore. If there is nothing but pain, what is it? That is Buddha.

Okumura Roshi, who is in a style of Shikantaza closer to ours, says this in a teaching for beginners:

Posture, breathing and mind are the basis of zazen. This book discusses all these fundamental aspects of practice. Dogen Zenji described three ways to harmonize breathing in zazen: breath counting (or susoku-kan); watching the breath, (zuisoku-kan); and neither counting nor watching the breath. I heard an American Soto Zen teacher say that Shunryu Suzuki Roshi (founder of San Francisco Zen Center) taught breath counting, Dainin Katagiri Roshi (the founder of Minnesota Zen Meditation Center) taught watching the breath, and Kosho Uchiyama Roshi (in his book Opening the Hand of Thought) taught doing nothing but breathing naturally as we forget breathing. How is one to choose among these approaches?

Soto Zen teachers practice and teach in various ways. Each teacher practices his or her own style. Since I am a disciple of Uchiyama Roshi, my own instruction is based on his approach to zazen—neither counting nor watching the breath. It seems to me this is what Dogen Zenji describes in Eihei-koroku when he says that inhaling or exhaling are neither long nor short. Whichever practice one follows, it is important to breathe through the nose deeply, smoothly and quietly as the air goes to the tanden (lower part of abdomen) and rises with one’s exhalation. What does it mean to concentrate if one doesn’t count or watch the breath? Uchiyama Roshi often compared sitting zazen to driving a car. When we drive, it is dangerous to sleep or to be caught up in thinking. It is also dangerous to concentrate one’s mind on an object like the brake pedal, the gas pedal, or the steering wheel. We concentrate our entire body and mind on the whole process of driving a car. Our sitting is the same. We don’t set our mind on any particular object, visualization, mantra, or even our breath itself. When we just sit, our mind is nowhere and everywhere. Then we can say that our body and mind is concentrated in just sitting. Sitting mindfully, whenever we deviate from upright posture, deep and smooth breathing, awakening and letting go of thought, we just return to the point.
https://www.sotozen.com/eng/library/...f/soto_zen.pdf

The only time to count is perhaps when there is an extreme struggle where the mind is truly storming. Please now stop counting.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah
Sorry to run long.

[Tai Shi]

Two years ago I began counting breath and feel that only now am I finding it less satisfying, not like suddenly, but more naturally like it is not there.
Gassho
sat/lah


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[Rousei]

The only time to count is perhaps when there is an extreme struggle where the mind is truly storming. Please now stop counting.

Thank you for your guidance. I feel I understand shikantaza a little better now, it is ongoing.

Deep gassho
Mark
ST

[Hōkan]

The only time to count is perhaps when there is an extreme struggle where the mind is truly storming.

Me, most days.

I have big monkey mind. Powerful monkey mind. My monkey mind can beat up your monkey mind.

Over time zazen has helped my mind settle and I spend less time counting or following my breath than I did decades ago, but it's still often necessary. Even so, sometimes monkey mind is stronger than following, stronger than counting. I persist.

I sat this morning, then went to get "boosted". Arm is only slightly sore; I think it was a half dose.

[Bion]

Do eyes have to be open?

Me, most days.

I have big monkey mind. Powerful monkey mind. My monkey mind can beat up your monkey mind.

Over time zazen has helped my mind settle and I spend less time counting or following my breath than I did decades ago, but it's still often necessary. Even so, sometimes monkey mind is stronger than following, stronger than counting. I persist.

I sat this morning, then went to get "boosted". Arm is only slightly sore; I think it was a half dose.

I wonder then what the difference is between being focused on counting breaths or being focused on thinking about what’s for dinner during zazen.

[emoji1374] Sat Today