Is thinking also reality?

[Tomás ESP]

Jundo's recent comments regarding how Dogen presented his view on reality, not as an onion to be peeled with different insights and levels of realization, but as a reality that is already whole (if I understood this correctly) made me reflect upon thinking. Within the zen tradition, I have read in different places that our thinking tends to trap us in delusion by not letting us see reality for what it really is. We comparmentalize reality and this generates a whole lot of suffering.

The thing is, to me this thinking, greed, aversion, delusion is all still reality itself. Even suffering is reality itself. And this reality is whole and complete, including our innability to see it as such.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Kyōsen]

Where else would thoughts appear to arise?

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Bion]

They are A reality.. a personal, unique one, fabricated by the senses and mind.
There is a planet somewhere in the Universe right now exploding.. or a sun freezing.. We know nothing about it, so not a reality for us, and the destruction and devastation following are neither good nor bad. If I were to say right now, so what do you feel in your elbow, you’d have to direct your attention to that part of the body and become aware of it, and the elbow would become a reality in this moment to you. Yet, planets are always there, elbow as well.. So, the reality we experience is the one fabricated by the mind, but not necessarily the objective reality of simple existence.


[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Prashanth]

Jundo's recent comments regarding how Dogen presented his view on reality, not as an onion to be peeled with different insights and levels of realization, but as a reality that is already whole (if I understood this correctly) made me reflect upon thinking. Within the zen tradition, I have read in different places that our thinking tends to trap us in delusion by not letting us see reality for what it really is. We comparmentalize reality and this generates a whole lot of suffering.

The thing is, to me this thinking, greed, aversion, delusion is all still reality itself. Even suffering is reality itself. And this reality is whole and complete, including our innability to see it as such.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

The Merriam-Webster dictionary defines Thinking as: "The action of using one's mind to produce thoughts"

The act is real.
That thoughts arise is real.
That thoughts arouse emotions in us or lead to action or expressing them is real.
But is the content of those thoughts always real?


Gassho

Sat


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[Tobiishi]

"Within the zen tradition, I have read in different places that our thinking tends to trap us in delusion by not letting us see reality for what it really is. We comparmentalize reality and this generates a whole lot of suffering."

I haven't read a bunch of Dogen, but... I'm not sure compartmentalizing reality and not being able to see Reality for what it is are the same thing. Maybe the first part is one way the second is defined. There are an infinite number of ways we could be deluded about reality, but I agree with Bion that we experience what we create in our mind (which is maybe a "superficial" experience.) A deep experience of reality, closer to what It actually is, could require a change of mind, or utilizing our cognition in a different way.

But in the end, in order to get by in the world and do what we must do for ourselves and others, it always comes back to chop wood, carry water. Practical reality vs. zafu reality. One of my goals in life is to bring those two closer together. But I can't tell myself that on the cushion since I'm not supposed to have a goal! Urg, zazen.

Kodo Tobiishi sat/lah

[Kokuu]

Jundo's recent comments regarding how Dogen presented his view on reality, not as an onion to be peeled with different insights and levels of realization, but as a reality that is already whole (if I understood this correctly) made me reflect upon thinking. Within the zen tradition, I have read in different places that our thinking tends to trap us in delusion by not letting us see reality for what it really is. We comparmentalize reality and this generates a whole lot of suffering.

It is a good question!

As I understand it, thinking is reality just as it is. How could it not be? However, if we do not recognise it for what it is, which is just dependent arising, then we are trapped in delusion. If we see that thinking is just like all other phenomena, lacking independent reality of its own and just arising and passing, then we get less trapped.

As a way of illustrating this, if I think "I am a great Zen master", I can get trapped in the delusion of that if I take that idea to be reality. However, if I recognise that minds produce thought, some of which are fantasies, I am in no way grasping at the idea but see it for what it is. Either way the thought is just as it is, a dependent-arising coming from all that is, an expression of reality. Seeing it one way, we get caught, in the other we do not. The nature of the thought tself does not change.


Gassho
Kokuu
-sattoday-

[Jundo]

Jundo's recent comments regarding how Dogen presented his view on reality, not as an onion to be peeled with different insights and levels of realization, but as a reality that is already whole (if I understood this correctly) made me reflect upon thinking. Within the zen tradition, I have read in different places that our thinking tends to trap us in delusion by not letting us see reality for what it really is. We comparmentalize reality and this generates a whole lot of suffering.

The thing is, to me this thinking, greed, aversion, delusion is all still reality itself. Even suffering is reality itself. And this reality is whole and complete, including our innability to see it as such.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Thoughts are real as thoughts (like a table is real as a table), but some of those real thoughts are wrong (Paris is not the capital of England, no matter how much I believe so) or harmful (thoughts of excess desire, anger and violence, overly divided categorizing, excess fear, destructive sadness etc.). These are real "really bad" thoughts that we can do without.

So, then in Zazen, one experiences a world free of thoughts and judgements (no table, for tables are empty as separate things) ... one experiences interflowing and interidentity (Paris is simply London in France, London is Paris in England) while free of all desires, all lack and tension, no categories or divisions, nothing to fear, etc etc. ... which is all a real face of reality too.

Then, we put all this together and have ... tables no tables, Paris that is London yet not, desire without desire, violence yet nobody to kill and nobody to be a killer and no "life and death" etc. etc. ... which is "thinking not thinking."

All real in its way.

In ignorance, some people are lost in only the first kind of harmful and divided thoughts.

But to only think that the other face (free of all thoughts and divisions) is the only reality is also a partial view.

In the end, we find that one is the face of the other, and the world of divisions is thus illuminated.

Does that help?

Table are tables and are really useful as tables, and the pain of walking into a table is real too ...

... tables are not tables, and nothing to bump into, nobody to do the bumping ...

... table are tables again ... OUCH!

Like that.

Gassho, J

STLAH

Sorry to run long

[Tomás ESP]

Thank you all for your helpful comments

"In the end, we find that one is the face of the other, and the world of divisions is thus illuminated." Lovely Jundo.

When I first began to practice, mountains were mountains and rivers were rivers. As I trained, mountains were not mountains; rivers were not rivers. Now that I am established in the way, mountains are once more mountains and rivers are once more rivers.

Makes sense

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Yamabushi]

If there is Right View there must be Wrong View. Otherwise their would just be View.

The brain is an organ. The stomach is an organ. The stomach secretes acid. Too much acid leads to ulcers or cancer. The brain secretes thoughts. Too many thoughts or wrong thoughts lead to suffering. Putting the little "I" into the thought is real, but not reality.

Gassho,

-Jared

(Sat Today)

[Jundo]

Putting the little "I" into the thought is real, but not reality.

I was with you the whole way until that last part. Oh, the "I" is not real, and yet it is and is reality (see this other thing today) ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?19307-The-Little-self-is-a-Fiction-yet-As-Real-As-Real-Can-Be

... A angry, greedy, jealous "I" is reality in like way ... not real yet real ... but is just not a good reality-non-reality.

Master Dogen said that this life of ours is like a dream, yet it is a real dream, our dream ... so we should dream it well, not make a nightmare.

Gassho, J

STLah

PS - We also speak of each view being its own self-contained reality, as real as real can be, as is the viewless ... viewless-views.

[Yamabushi]

Jundo:

I am picking up what you are putting down. The little "I" and the big "I" are both real. One creates suffering and one creates happiness. The Four Noble Truths are evidence of this.

Gassho,

-Jared

(Sat Today)

[Nengyoku]

Are the suffering I and the happy I not one, not two though?
Can we let go of the suffering I without also leaving the happy one? Should we endeavor for a middle way that allows us to just coexist with both?

Gassho,
William
SatLah

[Bion]

Jundo:

I am picking up what you are putting down. The little "I" and the big "I" are both real. One creates suffering and one creates happiness. The Four Noble Truths are evidence of this.

Gassho,

-Jared

(Sat Today)

Actually, same root for both feelings… happiness, sadness, no different, just the dial in opposite directions. Happy does not come from somewhere “better” than sad. The illusion of them stems from the same place [emoji3526]


[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Yamabushi]

Actually, same root for both feelings… happiness, sadness, no different, just the dial in opposite directions. Happy does not come from somewhere “better” than sad. The illusion of them stems from the same place [emoji3526]


[emoji1374] Sat Today

A flower falls even though we love it and a weed grows even though we do not love it. -Dogen Zenji

[Tai Shi]

Jundo please let me spin few words in my life when I can make history fiction, fiction history. I don’t know much Zen. I do know words, words know me. Words are slippery weather Shakespeare or Dogen. Women and men spend years upon years wearing words the Emperor had in reality no clothes. This was the mark of men saturated wit stingy demands of office made high blindness to reality being forfeiture to truth. What’s truth? There are absolutes to suffering and destruction. Absolute wealth breads as absolute poverty. Power corrupts. Absolute Power breeds absolute corruption. People, mountains, dignity evil and great goodness great evil do exist. People are those who conceived in evil can also be conceived in superlative love, so what is love? What is evil? As lay person why do I know less than the teacher? Who’s teacher depends upon what is being taught. We take for granted Teacher is better than teacher. It does not matter much in Zendo where Zen is taught that it be taught by Roshi not lay member. Though lay member educated in eleven years of study, the same could be said of Zen Teacher and more. So many slip on the words reality, duality, wisdom, so as was said of Dogen and Shakespeare. Both men and word smith pounded out on the anvil of reality thousands upon thousands of words defining reality. The thought is the thought. Therefore, reality is the same reality both people so discerning find in love death compassion, dishonesty sanctified death differing from Killing one’s friends and neighbors. Which one is evil? We in Zen find in 10 precepts a manner of behavior. Women and men working together in a Zendo for greater good. Could it not be said of a Christian church that works with salvation to redemption from evil. Which is only words fashioned to prove reality. We in our Zendo relinquish power to Teacher and Teaching. In church members defer to Priests or Minister and Bible. We then say we do not know. But we know what is evil, as in gas chambers of Jewish death, or put to death in Texas prison. Which is justified by law? Both as there is no relativity in suffering, all suffering. We hope and pray, we sit zazen hopefully both for good. For if not for good, why bother?
Gassho
wordsmith
sat/ lah
calm poetry


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