Things as they are

[Guest]

How does one see things as they are?


Gassho

John

SatToday

[Jundo]

How does one see things as they are?

That is such a misunderstood phrase, John, like peeling the onion looking for the onion. Everything that one experiences is that experience as it is. Atoms are just atoms as they are, sunrises are just sunrises as they are, happy moments are just happy moments as they are, sad moments are just sad moments as they are.

Some Buddhists and other eastern philosophers seem to teach that the world "as it really is" is only when we strip all the chaos and separation out of the world, to find the wholeness beyond all separation. Master Dogen was a little different, teaching that the whole is found even in the separation to the wise eye.

Alas, even angry, violent, greedy moments are just those angry, violent, greedy moments as they are.

What we can learn to do in Buddhism is to create moments of peace, non-violence and equanimity ... which then become moments of peace, non-violence and equanimity as they are.

Also, we can learn to accept all moments, all circumstances, all problems "just as they are" ... even as we do not: We can learn to experience life two ways as one. I sometimes compare this attitude to accepting one's tooth ache "just as it is" ... yet going to the dentist anyway because it hurts like hell! A decayed tooth is a jewel of a decayed tooth just as it is ... and yet, let's get that tooth pulled! We can approach all problems in life, society, the world in such way(s) as one.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Jundo]

PS - Master Dogen's attitude of the wholeness, illumination, enlightenment right in all the individual things, people, events of this world was the theme of our Zazenkai yesterday. From Master Dogen's Genjo-Koan ...

Our enlightenment is like the moon reflected in the water.
The moon does not get wet, the water is not broken.
Although the light shines wide and vast, the moon is
reflected in a puddle a foot or an inch wide. The entire
moon and the whole sky are reflected in countless dewdrops
upon the grass, and even in a single drop of water.
Enlightenment does not divide a person, just as the moon
does not shatter the water. We cannot obstruct enlightenment,
just as a drop of water does not obstruct the moon in
the sky. The depth of each drop is the measure of the height
of the moon. No matter how long or short the duration of
each reflection, it expresses the largeness or smallness of the
dewdrop, yet completely holds the boundlessness of the
moonlight in the heavens.

[Suuko]

How does one see things as they are?


Gassho

John

SatToday

It's when we really accept things as they are without us trying to manipulate the truth to feel safer or in control. A lot of times, we are interpreting reality after it goes through the filter of our beliefs, morality and so on or we don't want to see reality the way it is because it's harmful to us.

Gassho,
Sat today,
Guish.


Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

It's when we really accept things as they are without us trying to manipulate the truth to feel safer or in control. A lot of times, we are interpreting reality after it goes through the filter of our beliefs, morality and so on or we don't want to see reality the way it is because it's harmful to us.

I am not so sure. I feel that we are just substituting one "as it is" for another.

For example, when I was a kid, I once got up early to sit on Florida beach and witness the sunrise. I wanted to have a "real" experience, so I sat there saying to myself "I am really seeing the sunrise, I am really seeing the sunrise." Of course, by my doing so, I felt a little distant from the sunrise.

Then, however, I stopped saying anything to myself, and stopped TRYING to have a "real" experience. At that moment, the sunrise was just the sunrise.

However, neither of the above was the sunrise seen in countless other ways, like the nuclear fission reactions of a star, transmitted by photons through space, entering the atmosphere of a planet, then my retina, the signaled to my brain ...

Which is "real"??

I would say that they are all "real."

The first is "trying to have a real sunrise experience," which experience is just as it is.

The second is not saying or trying anything, which moment is also just as it is.

The third is fission reactions, photons and neurons just as it is.

All is just as it is.

My point is that it is something of a mistake to privilege one aspect of reality over another. Truly, each is a face of the other, all "as it is."

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Suuko]

I am not so sure. I feel that we are just substituting one "as it is" for another.

For example, when I was a kid, I once got up early to sit on Florida beach and witness the sunrise. I wanted to have a "real" experience, so I sat there saying to myself "I am really seeing the sunrise, I am really seeing the sunrise." Of course, by my doing so, I felt a little distant from the sunrise.

Then, however, I stopped saying anything to myself, and stopped TRYING to have a "real" experience. At that moment, the sunrise was just the sunrise.

However, neither of the above was the sunrise seen in countless other ways, like the nuclear fission reactions of a star, transmitted by photons through space, entering the atmosphere of a planet, then my retina, the signaled to my brain ...

Which is "real"??

I would say that they are all "real."

The first is "trying to have a real sunrise experience," which experience is just as it is.

The second is not saying or trying anything, which moment is also just as it is.

The third is fission reactions, photons and neurons just as it is.

All is just as it is.

My point is that it is something of a mistake to privilege one aspect of reality over another. Truly, each is a face of the other, all "as it is."

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

STLah

Thank you Jundo. I also fully accept what you are saying. Everything is part of the experience. I was thinking about some people who are a bit paranoid and think that life is trying to get at them. I have met a few people like this who think life is against them and they become very defensive towards everything.

Historically, Stalin got paranoid and started to eliminate everyone who he felt was a danger to him. However, this was his reality too. Isn't it?

Gassho,
Sat today,
Guish.

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[Jundo]

Thank you Jundo. I also fully accept what you are saying. Everything is part of the experience. I was thinking about some people who are a bit paranoid and think that life is trying to get at them. I have met a few people like this who think life is against them and they become very defensive towards everything.

Historically, Stalin got paranoid and started to eliminate everyone who he felt was a danger to him. However, this was his reality too. Isn't it?

Gassho,
Sat today,
Guish.

Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk

Paranoia and living under Stalin is paranoia and living under Stalin just as it is.

That said, we do our best not to be unreasonably fearful, and we do our best to have everyone live without fear of the secret police.

Then, such condition is just living free of fear, peacefully in one's home, as it is.



Enlightenment, the moon, is never failing to shine in any of it. As Dogen might have said ...

Our enlightenment is like the moon reflected in Stalin.
The moon does not become afraid, the Stalin is not broken.

I know it is harder to see than more pleasant images like peaceful grass and drops of dew ... but it is just as true.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Prashanth]

How does one see things as they are?


Gassho

John

SatToday

can we say that we could start by seeing what things are not? To peel away our imagination or perception or judgement about things?

Gassho
sat today.


Sent from my GS190 using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

can we say that we could start by seeing what things are not? To peel away our imagination or perception or judgement

'Imagination or perception or judgement' are just what they are, reality as it is.

To peel away 'imagination or perception or judgement' is reality as it is.

Do not neglect either. Each a face of the other.

Most people only know the first as reality. That is delusion. Some people think only the second is really reality, and some schools teach so. That is also one sided. Do not neglect either. All is as it is.

Gassho J
Stlah

[JohnS]

Then what is the point of Zen, or even enlightenment at all? Can't we just decide to see that way and be done ? Questions from the land of confusion

Gassho

John

SatToday

[Zenkon]

All is as it is

So, perhaps a cloudy day is not sunshine obscured by clouds which we need to let drift away but, rather, simply a cloudy day.

Gassho

Dick

sat/lah

[Myoku]

'Imagination or perception or judgement' are just what they are, reality as it is.

As the thread is a bit of theoretic discussion, which is fine, I feel entitled to join. Yes, Jundo, but isnt it a point of our practice to see more clearly, with a more wise and loving eye ? I believe it is, by seeing things more like they really are we gain the ability to react more skillful.

Gassho
Myoku
sat

[Soka]

Some Buddhists and other eastern philosophers seem to teach that the world "as it really is" is only when we strip all the chaos and separation out of the world, to find the wholeness beyond all separation. Master Dogen was a little different, teaching that the whole is found even in the separation to the wise eye.

For some reason this (and the thread generally) has reminded me of Russell: Does the set of all sets which do not contain themselves contain itself?

Gassho,
Sōka
sat

[Ugrok]

That's why zazen is so beautiful. When sitting, since you never can do or be anything else than what you are doing exactly in this moment, you cannot fail and you don't even have to try to change anything ! Sitting like this is complete surrender. When i understood that it was a big relief.

Gassho,

Uggy
Sat today
LAH

[Jundo]

Then what is the point of Zen, or even enlightenment at all? Can't we just decide to see that way and be done ?

...Yes, Jundo, but isnt it a point of our practice to see more clearly, with a more wise and loving eye ? I believe it is, by seeing things more like they really are we gain the ability to react more skillful.

Ah, please do not misunderstand the point.

A moment of ignorance, excess desire, anger, divided thinking is a moment of ignorance etc. "just as it is." But that does not mean we are to stay such way!

Then, in this practice, we experience in Zazen a way free of all desire, no anger, a wholeness beyond all separation and friction ... and this is also "just as it is."

The problem is that sometimes people think that the latter is "reality," but the former is not. In fact, they are both the same all along but, in our ignorance, we do not realize so. You cannot only stay with the latter as reality, and ignore the former. Instead, mountains are mountains, mountains are not mountains, but then ...

... mountains are mountains again.

We return to seeing the world of things, divisions, frustrations, happiness and sadness and all the opposites ... but realize that it is just another face of "free of all desire, no anger, a wholeness beyond all separation and friction" ... and they are "not one, not two." The one face now fully clarifies and illuminates the other ... but both faces still are their own face. The world of ignorance remains ... and yet is very different from before!

Then, this "not one, not two" is also "just as it is."

Some folks think that the point is to get beyond this world, and then we will see things "as they are." That is an error. Better said, it is ALL things "as they are" but the first folks are lost in ignorance, the second folks think only of emptiness, and our practice is to know that they were/are never two ... "just as it is."

Does that help?

Many spiritual people think that this world of division, friction, sadness, etc. is false. It is not. It is merely not fully known.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long.