Some Newbie-Questions regarding Zazen-Practice

[Zrebna]

Mind you, you don’t need to be already set in your posture. You just place the zafu , sit on it, no crossing the legs all the way, grab it with the right hand, three fingers, use the left hand to guide your whole body and gently turn around while holding on to the zafu, which you keep u turn with yourself, so that if it has a lable or drawing on the back, it’s placed aligned with the center of your back when you sit. Then settle into your posture. Hope that helps!!! [emoji1]

Sorry for running long

[emoji1374] Sat Today

This helps for sure I will just try it out - thank you^^
Also thanks Jundo for your post.

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

[Zrebna]

Hi!

Please grant me 2 more short annoying nit-picking questions - just seems that in Zazen posture and setting is of higher importance than within other traditions, so I want to make sure to "learn"/habituate it from the beginning right enough, if that makes sense:

1.) Any pointers on how far away we want to sit from the wall we are looking "through"?
2.) My second practice is before I hit bed. Oftentimes my wife is by then sleeping already,
so I cannot do this practice in the bedroom where there is plenty of unadorned white wall to "stare" at.
In the rest of our home, believe it or not, I cannot find enough white wall to sit in front without needing to move stuff
around which is quite annoying.
Does it have to be exactly a white wall or is my assumption alright that suitable substitutes will do?
In my case I could sit in front of the back of a beige colored closed door - is this good enough?

Gassho
Chris
Sat today

[Bion]

Some Newbie-Questions regarding Zazen-Practice

Hi!

Please grant me 2 more short annoying nit-picking questions - just seems that in Zazen posture and setting is of higher importance than within other traditions, so I want to make sure to "learn"/habituate it from the beginning right enough, if that makes sense:

1.) Any pointers on how far away we want to sit from the wall we are looking "through"?
2.) My second practice is before I hit bed. Oftentimes my wife is by then sleeping already,
so I cannot do this practice in the bedroom where there is plenty of unadorned white wall to "stare" at.
In the rest of our home, believe it or not, I cannot find enough white wall to sit in front without needing to move stuff
around which is quite annoying.
Does it have to be exactly a white wall or is my assumption alright that suitable substitutes will do?
In my case I could sit in front of the back of a beige colored closed door - is this good enough?

Gassho
Chris
Sat today

Oh, let me just say, while the wall is the recommended “place” to face, zazen can be sat anywhere, anytime (between you and I, whatever direction you face, there is a wall somewhere), so just be reasonable.. Give yourself room for the legs and to stretch and all that.

I face the wall most of the time, but I enjoy sitting in the park on the grass, in the woods, I sat on a rock in the middle of a river, underneath almond blossoms and sometimes I will sit in my living room or in the bedroom, by the bed etc…

Sorry for the many words
Here’s some visual aids (one is practitioners at Antaiji, the other, a group in a friend’s temple) :


[emoji1374] Sat Today (facing the wall )

[Jundo]

Hi!

Please grant me 2 more short annoying nit-picking questions - just seems that in Zazen posture and setting is of higher importance than within other traditions, so I want to make sure to "learn"/habituate it from the beginning right enough, if that makes sense:

1.) Any pointers on how far away we want to sit from the wall we are looking "through"?
2.) My second practice is before I hit bed. Oftentimes my wife is by then sleeping already,
so I cannot do this practice in the bedroom where there is plenty of unadorned white wall to "stare" at.
In the rest of our home, believe it or not, I cannot find enough white wall to sit in front without needing to move stuff
around which is quite annoying.
Does it have to be exactly a white wall or is my assumption alright that suitable substitutes will do?
In my case I could sit in front of the back of a beige colored closed door - is this good enough?

Gassho
Chris
Sat today

I wanted to say that you must sit exactly between 35.28 centimeters from the wall, and one light year. The wall must be white, but not too white, and really not white at all, maybe a kind of eggshell with slight pink undertones.

But I decided not to tease you.

Bion said it all.

The color or condition of the wall or floor really does not matter as much as the fact that one does not think about it, cling to it.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Zrebna]

Oh, let me just say, while the wall is the recommended “place” to face, zazen can be sat anywhere, anytime (between you and I, whatever direction you face, there is a wall somewhere), so just be reasonable.. Give yourself room for the legs and to stretch and all that.

I face the wall most of the time, but I enjoy sitting in the park on the grass, in the woods, I sat on a rock in the middle of a river, underneath almond blossoms and sometimes I will sit in my living room or in the bedroom, by the bed etc…

Sorry for the many words
Here’s some visual aids (one is practitioners at Antaiji, the other, a group in a friend’s temple) :


[emoji1374] Sat Today (facing the wall )

Awesome, clears it up for me
And cool pictures, as well - thank you^^


Gassho
Chris
Sat today

[Zrebna]

I wanted to say that you must sit exactly between 35.28 centimeters from the wall, and one light year. The wall must be white, but not too white, and really not white at all, maybe a kind of eggshell with slight pink undertones.

But I decided not to tease you.

Bion said it all.

The color or condition of the wall or floor really does not matter as much as the fact that one does not think about it, cling to it.

Gassho, J

STLah

Hehe, a friendly tease might have been justified due to all these brilliant questions from me,
but thanks that you spared me, anyways D: - though it would have been a good one - cheers


Gassho
Chris
Sat today

[Doshin]

Chris,

Don’t often comment on Zen questions but this one generated a response…


I have no rules for how to sit or at least none that I have adhered to over the decades. My goal is to just sit.p. I am a bad student but strive to improve. There is no one right way in my opinion but as I said I need to improve. I have sat in my car looking at the horn, I have sat in a waiting room looking at my knees. I have sat many times in planes looking at the magazine holder. Like Bion I have sat in deserts, mountains and forests (my preferred places to sit with no wall at all) looking at nothing but whatever was there. And I have spent weeks in Zendos staring at walls like everyone else there noting imperfections in the paint job (or imagining images in the texture) Have not noticed any difference in the quality of my sit with however I did it but then I am just a beginner as I have been most of the last half century.

Doshin
St

[Jundo]

Chris,

Don’t often comment on Zen questions but this one generated a response…


I have no rules for how to sit or at least none that I have adhered to over the decades. My goal is to just sit.p. I am a bad student but strive to improve. There is no one right way in my opinion but as I said I need to improve. I have sat in my car looking at the horn, I have sat in a waiting room looking at my knees. I have sat many times in planes looking at the magazine holder. Like Bion I have sat in deserts, mountains and forests (my preferred places to sit with no wall at all) looking at nothing but whatever was there. And I have spent weeks in Zendos staring at walls like everyone else there noting imperfections in the paint job (or imagining images in the texture) Have not noticed any difference in the quality of my sit with however I did it but then I am just a beginner as I have been most of the last half century.

Doshin
St

[Zrebna]

Chris,

Don’t often comment on Zen questions but this one generated a response…


I have no rules for how to sit or at least none that I have adhered to over the decades. My goal is to just sit.p. I am a bad student but strive to improve. There is no one right way in my opinion but as I said I need to improve. I have sat in my car looking at the horn, I have sat in a waiting room looking at my knees. I have sat many times in planes looking at the magazine holder. Like Bion I have sat in deserts, mountains and forests (my preferred places to sit with no wall at all) looking at nothing but whatever was there. And I have spent weeks in Zendos staring at walls like everyone else there noting imperfections in the paint job (or imagining images in the texture) Have not noticed any difference in the quality of my sit with however I did it but then I am just a beginner as I have been most of the last half century.

Doshin
St

Thanks a lot for this one
It was quite a joy to read this post - it has really resonated very well with me and made me even feel some kind of profoundness, if you wanna call it that xD
So thank you very much

Gassho
Chris
Sat today

[Zrebna]

Hi!

I gotta ask a further sppecific question about the "half open eyes"-thing during zazen-practice...
I qoute Jundo from another thread that I have found on this topic - I hope that this is ok:


I just sit, looking out through my half open eyes, no differently than if I were sitting at my kitchen table looking at the room or driving a car looking at the road. If looking at the wall, I am just looking as if looking at any scenery. Normal vision, but I just am not particularly thinking about, pondering or concentrating on what I am seeing. I describe it as "staring at everything and nothing in particular". My eyes take in the room or the floor or wall quiet naturally, but I do not latch onto anything mentally to think about what I am seeing. For example, my eyes may rest on a chair or on some spots on the wall, but I just do not get lost in thoughts such as "ugly chair, need to go chair shopping" or "those dots look just like a giraffe"

So far, I have no issues with letting my eyes about half open and looking about 45 degrees downwards, but the bold emphasized parts make me wonder:
I oftentimes read that we basically look (for example) at the wall, do not focus with our eyesight any specific point.
Thus the eyes are relaxed and kind of look "through the wall into the infinite" - for instance look at this instruction which I have found in the past:

"Place the eye gaze about one-third up from the bottom of the wall to your own height and allow a soft gaze; that is to say, do not stare or focus on the wall, but let the gaze fall "through" the wall and be open to peripheral vision. "

When I do this, then my vision gets blurry and it seemed to me that this is a logical and normal consequence of having my eyes relaxed with a soft gaze by not focusing my eyesight on anything.
But when I drive on the road, then yeah my eyes are relaxed when looking into the distance and nothing is going on, but my vision is obviously not blurry.
Thus I am wondering if a blurry vision is normal/alright in the context of Zazen-practice? I would wonder how it is for other practicioners, as well...? For me it seemed so far alright and more so even expected that my eyesight would get blurry when not really focusing anything with my eyes, but rather just "starring through" something, like a wall.
Maybe someone could clear up my confusion on this matter, since so far I have not really given it too much thought.

Gassho
Chris
Sat today

[Jundo]

Hi Zrebna,

Here is a picture of how your eyes should be during Zazen, please do this ...





Actually, I think that you are way WAY overthinking this. We sit with eyes half open, but relaxed ... just looking. Eyes not blurry, just normal.

Most importantly, don't obsess about the eyes, don't get tangled in complicated thinking about what one sees.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Nengyoku]

If I may add something that helped me out a little here.

In Zen we are not discerning between "good" and "bad". Both imply a way that things should be other than what they are at that moment. Bad spaghetti might have too little sauce, or the noodles be overcooked. But that spaghetti is made just the way it was always intended to be made due to the causes and conditions that influenced it. Instead, we just accept the spaghetti as it is, wholeheartedly and with no conditions on our love for it.

Your eyes during Zazen (and everything else at all times too) are like this. If you think that your eyes are too open (or too closed) this thinking implies a state where they should be, we begin to obsess over how they SHOULD be or how they COULD be better instead of just accepting them as they are. Instead we let go of those preconceived notions and just sit with however our eyes are, or our hands are, or our back pain, or that afterwards may I really should do the dishes because...
Drop all of that, and just sit.

I like the imagery of trying to grasp the smoke from incense. If I light incense, and make a fist overhead of it, I will not grasp the smoke. I cannot control the smoke but I can choose to allow the smoke to be whatever it is, and in doing so remove my negative feelings from the equation.
Whenever I find myself being wrapped up in how things should be (in Zazen or otherwise) I try to mentally picture myself allowing the smoke to flow perfectly over my open hand.

And yes, spaghetti can be overcooked or overcooked while also still being how it is.
Your Zazen can be perfect while also still leaving room for improvement.
As can all.

Sorry to run long
Gassho,
William
Sat

[Zrebna]

Hi Zrebna,

Here is a picture of how your eyes should be during Zazen, please do this ...





Actually, I think that you are way WAY overthinking this. We sit with eyes half open, but relaxed ... just looking. Eyes not blurry, just normal.

Most importantly, don't obsess about the eyes, don't get tangled in complicated thinking about what one sees.

Gassho, J

STLah

Though then at least in this case I am not the only one who is obessing over it according to plenty of threads here or also at other places xD

Still, when I relax my eyes, then after a while my vision gets oftentimes blurry and I still think actually that this is in the range of expected when one does not fixate/focus anything...

Gassho
Chris
Sat today

[Zrebna]

If I may add something that helped me out a little here.

In Zen we are not discerning between "good" and "bad". Both imply a way that things should be other than what they are at that moment. Bad spaghetti might have too little sauce, or the noodles be overcooked. But that spaghetti is made just the way it was always intended to be made due to the causes and conditions that influenced it. Instead, we just accept the spaghetti as it is, wholeheartedly and with no conditions on our love for it.

I get the overall approach in Zen, but still contradictions do exists to some extent and this is fine.
This is also true with the posture in Zen which is given by the non-goal-oriented type of buddhism we call Zen way way more importance than in any other tradition - of course not at all cost, but indifferent preferencies (like the stoics would say) do very clearly exist - in this case I just was straight forward curious about how the eyesight appears for other practicioners, since to me it seems still normal enough that the eyesight might become automatically blurry after a while when one does not fixate/focus on anything...just a wondering out of curiosity, not a general view/hit on the overall non-aiming and "no bad, no good"-philosophy of Zen.


Your eyes during Zazen (and everything else at all times too) are like this. If you think that your eyes are too open (or too closed) this thinking implies a state where they should be, we begin to obsess over how they SHOULD be or how they COULD be better instead of just accepting them as they are. Instead we let go of those preconceived notions and just sit with however our eyes are, or our hands are, or our back pain, or that afterwards may I really should do the dishes because...
Drop all of that, and just sit.


See above - so far I did not think about my eyes at all (I think I also mentioned it in my opening relevant post) - I just do wonder out of curiosity (how it is for others) about this blurry-thing.
Not so much more is going on here, at least for this time xD I mean, for above 45-50 years old practicioners who sit < 1 meter in front of a wall without their reading glasses, the eyesight becomes for sure blurry, isn't it? Though, my quick google search tells me that when one relaxes his eyes and thus eye muscles the sight will get mostly over time naturally fuzzy and blurry. Next time should start with asking Google, instead of bothering the good people here with a curiousity-question xD

I like the imagery of trying to grasp the smoke from incense. If I light incense, and make a fist overhead of it, I will not grasp the smoke. I cannot control the smoke but I can choose to allow the smoke to be whatever it is, and in doing so remove my negative feelings from the equation.
Whenever I find myself being wrapped up in how things should be (in Zazen or otherwise) I try to mentally picture myself allowing the smoke to flow perfectly over my open hand.

And yes, spaghetti can be overcooked or overcooked while also still being how it is.
Your Zazen can be perfect while also still leaving room for improvement.
As can all.

Sorry to run long
Gassho,
William
Sat

In general good post with lots of good stuff, but in this case I infact was just curious about one specific thing...anyways, thanks so far

Gassho
Chris
Sat today

[Bion]

Though then at least in this case I am not the only one who is obessing over it according to plenty of threads here or also at other places xD

Still, when I relax my eyes, then after a while my vision gets oftentimes blurry and I still think actually that this is in the range of expected when one does not fixate/focus anything...

Gassho
Chris
Sat today

Shift focus.. Give yourself enough space from the wall, relax the eyes, basically “focusing” them mid-air between you and the wall, and hold the gaze naturally.. (sort of as if instead of looking ahead you’re looking inside your own head, if that makes sense). When your gaze drifts, come back and when the vision gets blurry, shift focus. It’s LITERALLY just sitting [emoji3526]

Sorry for running long.

[emoji1374] Sat Today