Some Newbie-Questions regarding Zazen-Practice

[Yamabushi]

Chris:

One of my teachers is ordained Jodo Shinshu and Rinzai Zen trained. He encourages the drinking of green tea prior to morning sitting. I like this as I like to practice drinking tea mindfully.

My Soto Zen teacher has taught to take 3 deep cleansing breathes prior to morning sitting. I do so through a Qi Gong technique.

Then I sit for 20 minutes in the morning. I usually sit Half-Lotus at home and Burmese style at the temple.

Gassho,

-Jared
(Sat Today)

[Bion]

@Kotei: Thanks for your input - sounds good to me



Even through the dark night he kept sitting and sitting - I am also thinking sometimes about that and then it becomes quite clear that the thing "facing a wall" was just a later pragmatic invention/idea to help reduce distractions. This point always seemed a little odd to me because why stop there and not going the whole way and basically turning off one sensory organ at all i.e. closing the eyes like it is in other traditions common?
By now I like it with open eyes better (it also reduces dullness), but then again:
I oftentimes have read that one of the reasons why we keep in Zazen the eyes open is to not artificially shut down anything and experience everything like it is (thus not turning of sensory input) - but looking roughly 45 degrees down onto the floor or preferrably on a blank wall is a manipulation of what is, in itself actually...
I guess, I misunderstand here some things xD

Other than this, good practical advice - thank you!

PS: More than 3 sentences, thus sorry for have run too long here.

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

Eyes open basically means we stay awake, we see but not look, and are less likely to fall asleep. Eyes looking down is, as you’ve probably already experienced yourself, a pretty natural way of allowing the eyes to rest when not focused on anything. The wall is dull, bland, still… provides less distractions for eyesight… The mind sure creates it own distractions, even in spite of trying to create relatively balanced conditions.

Sorry for the length.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Bion]

Chris:

One of my teachers is ordained Jodo Shinshu and Rinzai Zen trained. He encourages the drinking of green tea prior to morning sitting. I like this as I like to practice drinking tea mindfully.

My Soto Zen teacher has taught to take 3 deep cleansing breathes prior to morning sitting. I do so through a Qi Gong technique.

Then I sit for 20 minutes in the morning. I usually sit Half-Lotus at home and Burmese style at the temple.

Gassho,

-Jared
(Sat Today)

Even for shikantaza zazen, a deep breath through the nose , exhalation through the mouth is encouraged after assuming the posture and swaying a bit to firmly rest in balance. Many folks ignore the basic things jumping from bow to cushion… We sometimes forget the fluffing of the zafu, the turning clockwise, the swaying and stretching, and the breathing …

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Jundo]

Even through the dark night he kept sitting and sitting - I am also thinking sometimes about that and then it becomes quite clear that the thing "facing a wall" was just a later pragmatic invention/idea to help reduce distractions.

I was surprised when, a couple of years ago, I conducted an unofficial poll among teachers who are members of the Soto Zen Buddhist Association of North America, and found that most of the Soto teachers seemed to be open to sitting either way.

Anyway ... the historical reason may be a mistranslation of Bodhidharma, regarded as the First Patriarch of Ch'an or the Zen tradition, and a writing long attributed to him (The Two Entrances and Four Practices) that used the term in Chinese "biguan/pi-kuan". Historian Heinrich Dumoulin discusses Bodhidharma's wall-contemplation.

"In an ancient text ascribed to Bodhidharma, his way of meditation is characterized by the Chinese word pi-kuan, literally wall-gazing or wall-contemplation. Except for the word pi-kuan, the same passage is found in a Mahayana sutra; it reads: "When one, abandoning the false and embracing the true, in simplicity of thought abides in pi-kuan, one finds that there is neither selfhood nor otherness, that ordinary men (prthagjana) and saints (arya) are of one essence." (Zen Enlightenment, p. 38).

The actual meaning of "wall gazing" may not be a literal "sit while gazing at a wall", but closer to "sit as if a wall seeing". Nobody really knows what the term originally meant however. The great Zen Historian Yanagida Seizan has (ala Shikantaza) interpreted the term to denote a sort of witnessing of the world with the steadfast detachment of a wall in which one “gazes intently at a vibrantly alive śunyatā (emptiness).”

So, whether facing the wall, or away from the wall ... just sit, without thought of in or out.

However, the reason for facing the wall or looking at the floor, or keeping the eyes open part way, thoughts coming and going but not entangled with, is all ... Middle Way. Reducing distractions, not eliminating. Looking at the world, yet not. We neither close off the world, nor stare and ponder it.

Yes, for the more experienced sitter beyond "open and closed" the true "like a wall" and "untangled" is in the heart, and the physical eyes or direction do not matter. Open is closed and closed is open.

However, please sit now with eyes about 1/3 open, facing toward a pretty barren wall or floor now.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Zrebna]

Sorry, for the late reply - I have not been online the last few days...
But thanks for the further sharing and inputs at all

Even for shikantaza zazen, a deep breath through the nose , exhalation through the mouth is encouraged after assuming the posture and swaying a bit to firmly rest in balance. Many folks ignore the basic things jumping from bow to cushion… We sometimes forget the fluffing of the zafu, the turning clockwise, the swaying and stretching, and the breathing …

[emoji1374] Sat Today

May it have merrit for some people, but those 2 apsects are not mentioned in Dogen's original instructions i.e. in the Fukan-Zazengi, if I do not miss them - thus I consider them to be optional at best...especially turning clockwise after sit down feels more like a hindrance to my posture than a help.

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

[Bion]

Some Newbie-Questions regarding Zazen-Practice

Sorry, for the late reply - I have not been online the last few days...
But thanks for the further sharing and inputs at all



May it have merrit for some people, but those 2 apsects are not mentioned in Dogen's original instructions i.e. in the Fukan-Zazengi, if I do not miss them - thus I consider them to be optional at best...especially turning clockwise after sit down feels more like a hindrance to my posture than a help.

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

In our Soto tradition, in the zendo, all turning is always clockwise (as Jundo puts it, something about the way the Universe turns [emoji6]) .
The fluffing of the zafu is, if nothing else, a smart move, cause both a Kapoc filled one and a buckwheat filled one will be squashed after 30 minutes of zazen, so before we sit we fluff it to make sure we sit comfortably and when we’re done, we leave it fluffed up for the next sit.

You don’t need to sit on the zafu facing the room and then turn on the cushion clockwise to face the wall… mainly because that’s not always possible for various reasons, but in a zendo, there is a harmonious uniform dance performed by everyone, so that really, no one has to think too much about things, and just do them, wholeheartedly.

I mean, Dogen also said the only postures for zazen are half or full Lotus, and though he didn’t go into the “except for.. “ part, we can assume he was as reasonable as we are nowadays, otherwise zazen would be impossible for many people.
So, wisdom, dedication and respect for others are needed. [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] Sat Today ( sorry for running so long)

[Zrebna]

I was surprised when, a couple of years ago, I conducted an unofficial poll among teachers who are members of the Soto Zen Buddhist Association of North America, and found that most of the Soto teachers seemed to be open to sitting either way.

Anyway ... the historical reason may be a mistranslation of Bodhidharma, regarded as the First Patriarch of Ch'an or the Zen tradition, and a writing long attributed to him (The Two Entrances and Four Practices) that used the term in Chinese "biguan/pi-kuan". Historian Heinrich Dumoulin discusses Bodhidharma's wall-contemplation.



The actual meaning of "wall gazing" may not be a literal "sit while gazing at a wall", but closer to "sit as if a wall seeing". Nobody really knows what the term originally meant however. The great Zen Historian Yanagida Seizan has (ala Shikantaza) interpreted the term to denote a sort of witnessing of the world with the steadfast detachment of a wall in which one “gazes intently at a vibrantly alive śunyatā (emptiness).”

So, whether facing the wall, or away from the wall ... just sit, without thought of in or out.

However, the reason for facing the wall or looking at the floor, or keeping the eyes open part way, thoughts coming and going but not entangled with, is all ... Middle Way. Reducing distractions, not eliminating. Looking at the world, yet not. We neither close off the world, nor stare and ponder it.

Yes, for the more experienced sitter beyond "open and closed" the true "like a wall" and "untangled" is in the heart, and the physical eyes or direction do not matter. Open is closed and closed is open.

However, please sit now with eyes about 1/3 open, facing toward a pretty barren wall or floor now.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Very hepful post - thaks a lot

Regarding having the eyes open about 1/3 - do you think it is also acceptable to just have it open and gaze about 45 degrees downwards onto/"through§ the wall?
I ask because Gudo Nishijima specifically said that this suggestion having the eyes half of one thirs open is actually according to Dogen not 100% true since apparently Dogen just recommended to have the eyes naturally open...
Having the eyes just naturally open also feels so far easier to me since when deliberatley opening the eyes only half or one third it promotes dullness and the eyes might close further.
However when I start with natural open eyes (not too wide, not too narrow and gazing around 45 degrees downwards "through" the wall), they might stay open or naturally close a bit i.e. ending being half or one third open, but at least usually not clsoing further...I hope you know what I mean - difficult to explain in textform what i mean D:

Here is a link to the instructions from Gudo Nishijma where he mentiones the aspect regarding how far the eyes should be opened (I hope posting a link is alright in this situation - if not, apologies) - around the 6 minutes mark:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nsFlrdXVFgo

Sorry to have ran long.

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

[Zrebna]

In our Soto tradition, in the zendo, all turning is always clockwise (as Jundo puts it, something about the way the Universe turns [emoji6]) .
The fluffing of the zafu is, if nothing else, a smart move, cause both a Kapoc filled one and a buckwheat filled one will be squashed after 30 minutes of zazen, so before we sit we fluff it to make sure we sit comfortably and when we’re done, we leave it fluffed up for the next sit.

You don’t need to sit on the zafu facing the room and then turn on the cushion clockwise to face the wall… mainly because that’s not always possible for various reasons, but in a zendo, there is a harmonious uniform dance performed by everyone, so that really, no one has to think too much about things, and just do them, wholeheartedly.

I mean, Dogen also said the only postures for zazen are half or full Lotus, and though he didn’t go into the “except for.. “ part, we can assume he was a reasonable as we are nowadays, otherwise zazen would be impossible for many people.
So, wisdom, dedication and respect for others are needed. [emoji3526]

[emoji1374] Sat Today ( sorry for running so long)

Yeah, I get what you mean and said: As long as some people find it beneficial why not...
I guess I tend to be in general intuitively on the defense when it comes to stuff which seems on the first glance like a "rule" even though it might be just a recommended guideline...

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

[Bion]

Yeah, I get what you mean and said: As long as some people find it beneficial why not...
I guess I tend to be in general intuitively on the defense when it comes to stuff which seems on the first glance like a "rule" even though it might be just a recommended guideline...

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

I guess every place has its rules [emoji3526] Anyway, sometimes it’s about what’s beneficial to us and other times about what’s specifically beneficial for others, and then every possible combination of that in between.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Zrebna]

I guess every place has its rules [emoji3526] Anyway, sometimes it’s about what’s beneficial to us and other times about what’s specifically beneficial for others, and then every possible combination of that in between.

[emoji1374] Sat Today

Agreed^^

As long as stuff makes practical sense, I am open to it - for instance fluffing the zafu makes now perfectly sense to me after you explained it to me

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

[Bion]

Agreed^^

As long as stuff makes practical sense, I am open to it - for instance fluffing the zafu makes now perfectly sense to me after you explained it to me

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

I DILIGENTLY fluff that zafu, cause I have come to know pain on it hahahaha

[emoji1374] Sat Today

[Jundo]

Agreed^^

As long as stuff makes practical sense, I am open to it

This is not the best attitude in Zen training, and I will explain why to you so that it makes practical sense:

A lot of Zen training is putting aside what the ego wants, likes, demands which are the source of Dukkha. This is done in Zen training by flowing along with the dance of the rituals and customs of the group even if that is not what "I want, I like," and even if it does not always make "sense." After all, a mountain does not demand a reason that makes sense to be a mountain, and a river flows with circumstances, not always how it would "like." Thus, we learn to put aside our intellectual demands and preferences in life for a time. If you want to turn left in the monastery, when everyone else turns right, just because your prefer to turn right ... that is your ego. When you leave the Dojo, you can resume turning in whatever the hell direction one wishes.

Some Zen customs may or may not be from Dogen's time, but they are already hundreds of years old, so we follow them because that is what we do. But in this case of turning and eyes, Dogen was pretty specific in a writing known as Bendoho:

Monks in zazen ... When you want to go out ... gassho and get down off the tan, turning clockwise to face the edge of the tan.... When you do zazen always use a zafu. ... . Keep your eyes open, not too wide or too narrow, without eyelids covering the pupils. ... When you attentively follow the assembly according to this dharma, it is exactly the criterion for engaging the Way. ...

In any case, eyes open or closed, please sit with eye "not too wide nor too narrow," all while dropping from mind preferences, and ideas of "wide vs. narrow."

At the 6:30 mark in my Teacher's talk, he says "eyes should be open naturally" BUT if you look at the video image in that moment, you can see that his eyes are partially closed. This is true in many images of Nishijima sitting Zazen ...

I sat many retreats with Nishijima Roshi. We always fluffed our cushion after getting up from sitting and before sitting too.

Bion explains thing very nicely.

Gassho, J

STLah

Sorry to run long

[Zrebna]

Thanks for the post and also for the explanation why following certain rituals might help to let some ego and resistance go.
I will start following all rituals or guidelines that I could find within the pdf-instructions from Treeleaf, except may the one where after you would already sit on the cushion, you would need to turn clockwise until facing the wall (if I understood this correctly) due to practical reasons because for me it messes up a bti my posture - it is easier for me (after bowing to the cushion/wall -> fluffing the zafu -> turning clockwise and bowing again, but this time turned from the zafu away),
to just directly sit down facing right away the wall.

Though, of course I might practice this specific movement so that it would not mess up my posture anymore...

Anyways, thanks for all replies - they all helped a lot

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

[Jundo]

Thanks for the post and also for the explanation why following certain rituals might help to let some ego and resistance go.
I will start following all rituals or guidelines that I could find within the pdf-instructions from Treeleaf, except may the one where after you would already sit on the cushion, you would need to turn clockwise until facing the wall (if I understood this correctly) due to practical reasons because for me it messes up a bti my posture - it is easier for me (after bowing to the cushion/wall -> fluffing the zafu -> turning clockwise and bowing again, but this time turned from the zafu away),
to just directly sit down facing right away the wall.

Though, of course I might practice this specific movement so that it would not mess up my posture anymore...

Anyways, thanks for all replies - they all helped a lot

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

In Buddha, there is no "right vs. left." That is hard to understand, but imagine "right vs. left" in outer space in which there is someone without arms. Also, time does not matter in the grand scope of things, so how to turn "clockwise"??

Next, if there is medical necessity, such as a life threatening situation, there is no reason to turn clockwise if it will put your life in danger.

Otherwise, if everyone turns clockwise, then please turn clockwise, casting your personal ego and preferences into outer space for a time. After Zazen, turn any which way you want.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

Some Newbie-Questions regarding Zazen-Practice

Thanks for the post and also for the explanation why following certain rituals might help to let some ego and resistance go.
I will start following all rituals or guidelines that I could find within the pdf-instructions from Treeleaf, except may the one where after you would already sit on the cushion, you would need to turn clockwise until facing the wall (if I understood this correctly) due to practical reasons because for me it messes up a bti my posture - it is easier for me (after bowing to the cushion/wall -> fluffing the zafu -> turning clockwise and bowing again, but this time turned from the zafu away),
to just directly sit down facing right away the wall.

Though, of course I might practice this specific movement so that it would not mess up my posture anymore...

Anyways, thanks for all replies - they all helped a lot

Gassho,
Chris
Sat today

Mind you, you don’t need to be already set in your posture. You just place the zafu , sit on it, no crossing the legs all the way, grab it with the right hand, three fingers, use the left hand to guide your whole body and gently turn around while holding on to the zafu, which you turn with yourself, so that if it has a lable or drawing on the back, it’s placed aligned with the center of your back when you sit. Then settle into your posture. Hope that helps!!! [emoji1]

Sorry for running long

[emoji1374] Sat Today