Some Newbie-Questions regarding Zazen-Practice

[Zrebna]

Hi!
I am fairly new to Soto-Zen and thus I would have some different noobish questions and would appreciate any input 😊

1. Questions about Zazen-Practice with caffeine and strategies/antidotes when experiencing dullness/sleepiness

I am wondering what is the stance in Soto-Zen on having caffeine i.e. having a cup of coffee shortly before doing Zazen-Practice?
Other than this, I know that in Zazen-Practice the posture is of pretty high importance and should be usually not abondened if possible. But are there any strategies or antidotes that a practitioner might use during zazen when experiencing sleepiness and dullness to get more awake?
Sure I would start with potentially correcting/straightening my posture, but what else one could do?
Is it ok to temporarily look straight at the wall with the head being straight, instead of gazing on the wall or on the floor with a sunken gaze and the head being slight down? Also maybe splashing water on the face using a nearby vessel (no need to stand up) might be a help?
How do you deal with sleepiness and dullness during your Zazen-Practice?

2. How long typically a formal Zazen practice should last?
Before my interest into Zen has grown to a dimension, so that I could not ignore it any longer, I was for the past 2 years interested into Theravada Buddhism including a daily formal samatha-vipassana based meditation practice, thus practice where one would have an object on which one would put his attention. Typically it was asvised that a formal sit should last at least 1 hour.
Regarding Zazen I oftentimes read about shorter durations like 25 minutes, 30 minutes or up tp 45 minutes per sit.
Is this correct? How long do you practice per „session“ and how often do you practice formally per day?

3. Regarding sitting posture – legs:
The traditional posuteres due to the instruction within the Fukan Zazengi are either the full lotus or the half lotus. From my „readings“ alternatively also other postures such as the burmese sitting position or seiza posture are seemingly acceptable. But I never read about the quarter lotus which is
exactly like the half lotus, only that the left leg rests on the right lower leg / shank instead of on the right thigh.
I do personally find the quarter lotus to be the most comfortable postion for me, thus I wonder if this is a common and accepted posture regarding a formal zazen practice within the Soto-Zen school?

I also wonder if you guys do alternate legs when sitting in the half (or quarter) lotus?
Within the Fukan Zazengi it is stated the leeft leg is upper i.e. is resting on the right leg.
Is this of importance for some reason or can one also just alternate his legs from sit to sit, so that during every other sit the right leg is upper and is resting on the left leg?
Though when one only is practicing for 30-45 minutes per sit, alternating legs might not be so important – not sure…

Offtopic question:
Did any of you had issues to upload a profil picture, although it is only 15kb large and has 100x75 pixels and thus should meet the criteria to be uploaded here as an forum avatar?
I get all the time the error message 'Upload of file failed'...

A lot of questions from a Newbie, thus thanks a lot for reading through them patiently and I would appreciate any input 😊

Best wishes
Zrebna

[Nengyoku]

Hey Zrebna,

Don't worry about feeling new, we are all newbies in Zen.
I am not a teacher, and so I can only really give you advice about what helps me or bits that I have picked up, so take it with a grain of salt.

1) Caffeine isn't generally frowned upon in Zen. Japanese monasteries were fairly well known for using green tea matcha to stay alert, even.
Personally I drink quite a bit of green tea, but I find caffeine makes me fidgety during Zazen. This can be fine, fidget Zazen can be good Zazen as long as you let fidgety Zazen be fidgety Zazen and don't try to control it or set expectations. All the same though, I try not to be too caffeinated myself before sitting.
Instead one way to stay awake during Zazen is to perform Kinhin, or walking meditation. The bits of movement can help keep you from dozing off while still maintaining meditative awareness.

But, if that doesn't help that's okay. The Buddha gave teachings on the five hindrances, and among them was Sloth-and-Torpor. I would recommend reading into the Pacala Sutta for some advice.

After all of that though, sometime we are just drowsy. Trying to change that is just another way of resisting the world. Sometimes we just need to set it all aside and take a nap, and come back to Zazen once we are refreshed.

2) Any Zazen session where you are able to experience a moment of peace is long enough. For many people it takes some time of sitting still to really get into that place, and so most of our sits are at minimum 30 minutes.
But, I have had moments at work or just in daily life where I can take a deep breath, and sit for just a minute and feel that moment of peace. And so that too can be long enough.

Gassho,
William
SatLah

[Ryumon]

I’ll talk about tea, because I’m a tea snob. I find that tea does help keep me alert, though if you drink very strong tea, it might make you jittery. In general, green teas have less caffeine than black, and oolongs less than green. Most white teas have even less tHan oolong. (This assumes, of course, that you’re drinking real, loose tea, not dust in tea bags.)

I also very much appreciate the flavor of my tea as a gateway to zazen. And the aroma helps set the scene.

I’m not a coffee drinker, and coffee might be a bit too strong for zazen.

Gassho,
Ryūmon
Sat

[Rich]

I drink a little coffee in the morning before zazen



Sat/lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Doshin]

I drink a little coffee in the morning before zazen



Sat/lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Me 2 cups

Doshin
St

[Rich]

In the morning i sit 22 minutes, break, then 11 minutes but sometimes skip the 11. During the rest of the day i try to be aware much of the time



Sat/lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Rich]

Burmese posture works for me

Sat/lah




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Hi Zrebna (would you mind to sign a human first name, I know that it your username and you don't have a Dharma Name. It keeps things just a little more human around here. Thank you).

Nice to have you around here, and again "welcome!"

Let me try. Some of this is addressed in our beginner's series which I know you are looking at ...

A SERIES OF TALKS FOR NEW FOLKS

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?121-A-SERIES-OF-TALKS-FOR-NEW-FOLKS

Hi!
I am fairly new to Soto-Zen and thus I would have some different noobish questions and would appreciate any input ��

1. Questions about Zazen-Practice with caffeine and strategies/antidotes when experiencing dullness/sleepiness

As was mentioned, caffeine and Zen have a long happy relationship ... but all things in moderation. Don't get overly stimulated. It is up to your own body and feeling to find a good balance, not too much not too little ...certainly, stop before your heart jumps out your nose! I drink a big mug in the morning, maybe a small coffee in the afternoon. Everyone is different.

Other than this, I know that in Zazen-Practice the posture is of pretty high importance and should be usually not abondened if possible. But are there any strategies or antidotes that a practitioner might use during zazen when experiencing sleepiness and dullness to get more awake?
Sure I would start with potentially correcting/straightening my posture, but what else one could do?

We have had a few discussions on that. Here are a couple of very good recent ones with some strategies. Yes, straightening the posture is good. Time of day sitting is helpful. Getting a good night sleep is important in life in general.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?19220-What-does-sleeping-zazen-look-like&p=294088&viewfull=1#post294088

and

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18610-Dull-sleepy-zazen

Is it ok to temporarily look straight at the wall with the head being straight, instead of gazing on the wall or on the floor with a sunken gaze and the head being slight down?

The head should be always upright, resting comfortable on the shoulders, not too stiff (like a soldier at attention) not drooping forward. Truly, everyone needs to find their own postures that feel balanced, stable and comfortable. You will find information on that in the beginner's talks. Sometimes when tired, however, lengthening the neck, as if a string were slightly pulling the head upwards, can help a bit.

Also maybe splashing water on the face using a nearby vessel (no need to stand up) might be a help?

Not during Zazen.

2. How long typically a formal Zazen practice should last?
Before my interest into Zen has grown to a dimension, so that I could not ignore it any longer, I was for the past 2 years interested into Theravada Buddhism including a daily formal samatha-vipassana based meditation practice, thus practice where one would have an object on which one would put his attention. Typically it was asvised that a formal sit should last at least 1 hour.
Regarding Zazen I oftentimes read about shorter durations like 25 minutes, 30 minutes or up tp 45 minutes per sit.
Is this correct? How long do you practice per „session“ and how often do you practice formally per day?

You will find information on that in one of the beginner's talks ...

How Long To Sit? INTRODUCING the 15－Minute Sit

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14882-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2814%29&p=189091#post189091

I usually advise starting at 15 minutes, then finding what works in your life. HOWEVER, a strange-wise aspect of Shikantaza to NEVER forget is that, unlike many other kinds of meditation, Shikantaza is never about measures of time, point to rack up, more is better. Study this talk ...

Watching The Clock Rackin Up Points

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13634-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-Why-Zen-Folks-FAIL%21%21-%285%29-Watching-The-Clock-Rackin-Up-Points

3. Regarding sitting posture – legs:
The traditional posuteres due to the instruction within the Fukan Zazengi are either the full lotus or the half lotus. From my „readings“ alternatively also other postures such as the burmese sitting position or seiza posture are seemingly acceptable. But I never read about the quarter lotus which is
exactly like the half lotus, only that the left leg rests on the right lower leg / shank instead of on the right thigh.
I do personally find the quarter lotus to be the most comfortable postion for me, thus I wonder if this is a common and accepted posture regarding a formal zazen practice within the Soto-Zen school?

You will find information on this in the beginner's talks, but basically, in our Sangha, you do what your body and any medical conditions requires, finding the postures which are balanced, stable and comfortable to allow long sits, and which suit your particular body.

I also wonder if you guys do alternate legs when sitting in the half (or quarter) lotus?
Within the Fukan Zazengi it is stated the leeft leg is upper i.e. is resting on the right leg.
Is this of importance for some reason or can one also just alternate his legs from sit to sit, so that during every other sit the right leg is upper and is resting on the left leg?
Though when one only is practicing for 30-45 minutes per sit, alternating legs might not be so important – not sure…

We try not too overly move during Zazen itself (unless there is a real need, such as a sudden cramp). However, most sitters alternate by sitting period. It depends on what works with your body.

Traditionally, there have been explanation that the direction impacted "ki" flow in the body ... but I think that that is horse hockeypucks and an old wive's tale.

Offtopic question:
Did any of you had issues to upload a profil picture, although it is only 15kb large and has 100x75 pixels and thus should meet the criteria to be uploaded here as an forum avatar?
I get all the time the error message 'Upload of file failed'...

You will find instructions here. I think it is linked in the "welcome" message that I sent to you.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12837-Often-Asked-How-to-Add-an-Avatar-Photo

Now, go sit!

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Jundo]

2) Any Zazen session where you are able to experience a moment of peace is long enough. For many people it takes some time of sitting still to really get into that place, and so most of our sits are at minimum 30 minutes.

The first part is not correct. While our sittings at Zazenkai are about 30 minutes, some longer, however for daily sittings at home or work, it varies with the person's life. We don't try to "get into any place" (which, by the way, is how we can sometimes get somewhere!)

These two posts explain this:

How Long To Sit? INTRODUCING the 15－Minute Sit

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14882-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2814%29&p=189091#post189091

I usually advise starting at 15 minutes, then finding what works in your life. HOWEVER, a strange-wise aspect of Shikantaza to NEVER forget is that, unlike many other kinds of meditation, Shikantaza is never about measures of time, point to rack up, more is better. Study this talk ...

Watching The Clock Rackin Up Points
https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/show...ckin-Up-Points

However, the following is a vital and necessary part of the practice that everyone should do daily:

But, I have had moments at work or just in daily life where I can take a deep breath, and sit for just a minute and feel that moment of peace. And so that too can be long enough.

It does not even need to be seated! I do this many times each day, and it is key:

Anywhere, Anytime INSTA-ZAZEN!

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14883-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2813%29

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

[Nengyoku]

The first part is not correct. While our sittings at Zazenkai are about 30 minutes, some longer, however for daily sittings at home or work, it varies with the person's life. We don't try to "get into any place" (which, by the way, is how we can sometimes get somewhere!)

These two posts explain this:



However, the following is a vital and necessary part of the practice that everyone should do daily:



It does not even need to be seated! I do this many times each day, and it is key:

Anywhere, Anytime INSTA-ZAZEN!

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14883-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2813%29

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Gassho,
William
SatLah

[Zrebna]

Hey Zrebna,

Don't worry about feeling new, we are all newbies in Zen.
I am not a teacher, and so I can only really give you advice about what helps me or bits that I have picked up, so take it with a grain of salt.

1) Caffeine isn't generally frowned upon in Zen. Japanese monasteries were fairly well known for using green tea matcha to stay alert, even.
Personally I drink quite a bit of green tea, but I find caffeine makes me fidgety during Zazen. This can be fine, fidget Zazen can be good Zazen as long as you let fidgety Zazen be fidgety Zazen and don't try to control it or set expectations. All the same though, I try not to be too caffeinated myself before sitting.
Instead one way to stay awake during Zazen is to perform Kinhin, or walking meditation. The bits of movement can help keep you from dozing off while still maintaining meditative awareness.

But, if that doesn't help that's okay. The Buddha gave teachings on the five hindrances, and among them was Sloth-and-Torpor. I would recommend reading into the Pacala Sutta for some advice.

After all of that though, sometime we are just drowsy. Trying to change that is just another way of resisting the world. Sometimes we just need to set it all aside and take a nap, and come back to Zazen once we are refreshed.

2) Any Zazen session where you are able to experience a moment of peace is long enough. For many people it takes some time of sitting still to really get into that place, and so most of our sits are at minimum 30 minutes.
But, I have had moments at work or just in daily life where I can take a deep breath, and sit for just a minute and feel that moment of peace. And so that too can be long enough.

Gassho,
William
SatLah

Thanks a lot for all your input and for the recommended sutta on this matter^^

About the formal practice length:
Yeah, I just was at the beginning (positively, to be honest) surprised that a length of 30 minutes per formal Zazen sit seems to be already a decent acceptable length.
Regarding for instance a samatha-based practice (before I have dabbled a little bit within Theravada circles) the oftentimes recommended length for a sit is at least 1 hour or more.
So I am happy that regarding Zazen 30 minutes seem to be fine - this gives me the chance to add on most days a second maybe lil shorter) practice in the evening, whereas my first 30 min practice occurs in the morning.
Other than this, agreed - I also experience some sudden moments of piece "off the cushion".^^
Still, of course a daily formal zazen practice seems to be very important, as well.

Best wishes
Chris

[Zrebna]

@ Rich and Doshin:
Haha, yean then it can't be too bad if I keep allowing me on most days my morning cup of coffee xD
At least my evening practice is caffeine-free then^^
Thanks also for the further input

[Bion]

Some Newbie-Questions regarding Zazen-Practice

@ Rich and Doshin:
Haha, yean then it can't be too bad if I keep allowing me on most days my morning cup of coffee xD
At least my evening practice is caffeine-free then^^
Thanks also for the further input

I have coffee before morning zazen, as I do it after waking up! I do the same on Zazenkai nights (That’s Friday night/ Saturday morning for us Europeans). [emoji1] My evening sit is also caffeine free, though I might have tea [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Zrebna]

Hi^^

I will just post my replies "in bold" inside your quoted reply and hope that's alright...

Hi Zrebna (would you mind to sign a human first name, I know that it your username and you don't have a Dharma Name. It keeps things just a little more human around here. Thank you).

Yeah, for sure - I have kept reading the FAQs and by now I have come across the point and like the idea a lot.
I even regret that I have choosen a sort of "forums-nickname" as my username at Treeleaf instead of at least my first name.
By now I understand that this is much more than just an "enhanced" internet-forum aboutet Soto-Zen, but in fact a real sangha and community.
Would it be technically possible to change my Username from 'Zrebna' to 'Chris'? If not, then I might just keep it if that's ok and would make at least sure to sign any of my posts with my first name, if I sign them...

Nice to have you around here, and again "welcome!"

Thanks a lot!

Let me try. Some of this is addressed in our beginner's series which I know you are looking at ...

A SERIES OF TALKS FOR NEW FOLKS

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/forumdisplay.php?121-A-SERIES-OF-TALKS-FOR-NEW-FOLKS

Yes, I have crreated already a folder with all the offered beginner ressources and will gradually work my way throug them.



As was mentioned, caffeine and Zen have a long happy relationship ... but all things in moderation. Don't get overly stimulated. It is up to your own body and feeling to find a good balance, not too much not too little ...certainly, stop before your heart jumps out your nose! I drink a big mug in the morning, maybe a small coffee in the afternoon. Everyone is different.

Sounds like good practical advice to me I was just asking, since within some forums I have encountered during my "dabbling" within Theravada circles, some users had in general oftentimes pretty stong and black or white i.e. binary views. Also such a simple soft stimulant like coffee has been reason enough to cause some rather heated "discussions".
Thus, I was just wondering on your stance regarding this seemingly harmless topic xD

We have had a few discussions on that. Here are a couple of very good recent ones with some strategies. Yes, straightening the posture is good. Time of day sitting is helpful. Getting a good night sleep is important in life in general.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?19220-What-does-sleeping-zazen-look-like&p=294088&viewfull=1#post294088

and

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?18610-Dull-sleepy-zazen

The head should be always upright, resting comfortable on the shoulders, not too stiff (like a soldier at attention) not drooping forward. Truly, everyone needs to find their own postures that feel balanced, stable and comfortable. You will find information on that in the beginner's talks. Sometimes when tired, however, lengthening the neck, as if a string were slightly pulling the head upwards, can help a bit.

Thanks for the input and also for the links to the threads.


Not during Zazen.


No big loss, since I have rarely done it anyways - but why actually not? Maybe since it is a kin of too strong and/or immediate measure that might disturb the present experience/being i.e. just might disturb too much the sit?

You will find information on that in one of the beginner's talks ...

Will go through alll of them - it's nice that apparently they are also uploaded on youtube.


How Long To Sit? INTRODUCING the 15－Minute Sit

http://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?14882-Sit-a-Long-with-Jundo-Zazen-for-Beginners-%2814%29&p=189091#post189091

I usually advise starting at 15 minutes, then finding what works in your life. HOWEVER, a strange-wise aspect of Shikantaza to NEVER forget is that, unlike many other kinds of meditation, Shikantaza is never about measures of time, point to rack up, more is better. Study this talk ...

Watching The Clock Rackin Up Points

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13634-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-Why-Zen-Folks-FAIL%21%21-%285%29-Watching-The-Clock-Rackin-Up-Points

Hehe, exactly this thread I have found today in accident since you have linked it also here:

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?10623-Insight-Timer-Treeleaf-Group

Very good read, for sure and goes also hand in hand with the 'expect nothing mindset' and in general keep practicing of letting go of attachements and too much 'egoic' unnecessary striving...Especially this mindset resonnated very well with me and seems to be in general an important buddhist core teaching - it has confused me a bit that many people within theravada communities (although, I admitt that my experience and my sample size is very limited, so this is not meant to be a generalization) seemed to be extremely goal-oriented when it came to their buddhist practices - pointing out this sort of contradiction (at least in my view so far) to actually want to let go of attachements has led either to counter-arguments were in my opinion not so strong (like "only for the dhamma it is right to make an exception and be goal-oriented) or to the result, that in accident some people right away got quite a bit pretty angry xD



You will find information on this in the beginner's talks, but basically, in our Sangha, you do what your body and any medical conditions requires, finding the postures which are balanced, stable and comfortable to allow long sits, and which suit your particular body.



We try not too overly move during Zazen itself (unless there is a real need, such as a sudden cramp). However, most sitters alternate by sitting period. It depends on what works with your body.

Traditionally, there have been explanation that the direction impacted "ki" flow in the body ... but I think that that is horse hockeypucks and an old wive's tale.



You will find instructions here. I think it is linked in the "welcome" message that I sent to you.

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?12837-Often-Asked-How-to-Add-an-Avatar-Photo

Yeah, I have found it yesterday with the help of your welcome email - but still got the error messages - for some reasons it suddenly worked out today and seems that my pic is on here. ^^

Now, go sit!


Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Alright, thank you very much for your detailed post and all the very helpful information

Gassh
Chris

[Zrebna]

I have coffee before morning zazen, as I do it after waking up! I do the same on Zazenkai nights (That’s Friday night/ Saturday morning for us Europeans). [emoji1] My evening sit is also caffeine free, though I might have tea [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday

Thanks for sharing