What does sleeping zazen look like?

[Tomás ESP]

Despite having a high level of anxiety on a daily basis, I have almost never had any problems in terms of falling asleep. Lately I have had a few days of insomnia were it took me at least 2 hours to sleep. While I lied in bed I realized that this would be a good opportunity to practice, since worrying or forcing myself to sleep does not work. How has the practice impacted your sleep? Do you put zazen into practice while lying down waiting for the body to do it's thing?

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Bion]

Despite having a high level of anxiety on a daily basis, I have almost never had any problems in terms of falling asleep. Lately I have had a few days of insomnia were it took me at least 2 hours to sleep. While I lied in bed I realized that this would be a good opportunity to practice, since worrying or forcing myself to sleep does not work. How has the practice impacted your sleep? Do you put zazen into practice while lying down waiting for the body to do it's thing?

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Well, I “practice” by dropping worries and concerns when I go to bed. Regardless of what might be happening in my life, sleep is necessary and beneficial so the bedroom is a place of peace and comfort. If the body won’t fall asleep for whatever reason, I don’t force it and don’t stress out about it, but rather allow it to be restless or awake and I watch TV or play on the phone, or read.. etc.

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Suuko]

I exercise in the evening. So, my body is in pain and needs to recover at night. Sleeping becomes very easy this way. A few times, I have laid down and dropped all ideas on the bed. I think the attitude of Zen helps us in moments where we realise that we don't control anything and allow things just to be.

Sat today,
Gassho,
Guish.

Sent from my PAR-LX1M using Tapatalk

[Jundo]

Despite having a high level of anxiety on a daily basis, I have almost never had any problems in terms of falling asleep. Lately I have had a few days of insomnia were it took me at least 2 hours to sleep. While I lied in bed I realized that this would be a good opportunity to practice, since worrying or forcing myself to sleep does not work. How has the practice impacted your sleep? Do you put zazen into practice while lying down waiting for the body to do it's thing?

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

If I have too much coffee or other insomnia, I find that letting the mind clear and just relaxing helps (but, no guaranty!)

Just don't try to sleep in the Lotus Posture, which some "old school" Zen folks (and many Rinzai folks still do during their hard Sesshins). The following is off topic, but I report for those Zen tradition nerds like me who have not seen it ...

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

This is a good place to post about traditional Zen's ways of sleep.

It is also a LONG DULL post which you can read in bed, and it will put you right to sleep!!

First, as there is a method for all things in a Soto Zen monastery, there is a requisite procedure and requisite body positions for sleeping (From Dogen's Bendoho):

[After removing Okesa Robe] the monks continue zazen for a while. Slowly and deliberately they unroll their quilts
[and bedding], place their pillows, and lie down when the others do. Do not remain sitting when the other
monks do not, or look around at the assembly. Do not arbitrarily leave your place and go where you should not.
Just to go along with the community and lie down is the correct manner.

(The Sutra of the Three Thousand Deportments says that there are five kinds of manners for lying down. The
first is for your head to be in the direction of the buddha. The second is not to look at the buddha while lying
down. The third is not to stretch out your legs together [rather than keeping them bent]. The fourth is not to lie
down on your back or front. The fifth is not to raise your knees.) Definitely sleep lying on your right side and
not on your left side. When you lie down your head should be towards buddha. Now [in the monks' hall] our
heads are toward the joen*, so our heads are toward Manjushri. Do not sleep lying on your front. Do not raise
both knees and lie on your back. Do not sleep on your back with your legs crossed. Do not stretch out your legs
together. Sleep without taking off your robe. Do not be shamelessly naked as in the manner of those from
outside ways. Do not sleep with your belt untied. Lying down at night, remember the brightness.

The monks will tie themselves into their futon with a strap, like a Burrito, in order to maintain this position. You can actually see the ritual at the 27:00 mark here:

https://youtu.be/unteNZibuIQ

At time of intensive practice, monks will sit Zazen in place of sleep. It is more a Rinzai Practice on the great push for "Kensho", and the most extreme case I know is the traditional 7 days (!!) without sleep at an annual Sesshin in Korea ...

During yongmaeng chôngjin, the monks in meditation hall do not sleep for seven
straight days, breaking from their practice only for meals. They even skip the
dinner ritual in the main Buddha hall so as to devote themselves completely to their
meditation. In this intensive period, the monks face one another in two separate
rows down the middle of the meditation hall, rather than facing away as they
usually do. ... Otherwise the meditation sessions take place pretty much as
always, with fifty-minute sitting periods followed by ten minutes of walking. ...
Other than its obvious interminableness, the major difference between
yongmaeng chôngjin and regular meditation periods is that the large warning stick
(changgun chukpi) is in use constantly throughout each sitting period....
If the drowsy monk does not react to the guard's presence, the guard taps
him on the shoulder with the stick and gives him one round of blows.

As grueling as yongmaeng chôngjin might seem to the uninitiated, its purpose is
not to torture the monks. Rather it provides an incredibly intense, but still carefully
controlled, environment in which to meditate. The hope is that several days of
sleeplessness will apply enough pressure on the meditators that they will be able to
have a genuine breakthrough into their meditation topics, or hwadu ("critical
phrase" [of a Koan, such as "MU"]). Just before yongmaeng chôngjin begins, the Son master tries to impress
upon the meditators that the only way they will be able to survive the week is to
remain concentrated at all times on their hwadu and to arouse the sensation of
doubt. From my own experience, the sheer enormity of the task of remaining
awake for seven straight days was enough to frighten me into focussing on the
hwadu, as if I were clinging to it for dear life. The instant the mind wavers, you are
bludgeoned by bone-numbing fatigue, so the only hope you have of getting through
the week is to maintain your concentration.
http://www.persee.fr/doc/asie_0766-1...3_num_7_1_1069

Even in Soto monasteries, sometimes folks would sleep in the Lotus Position. In order to accomplish this, they would put a stick under their chin, and loop a rope from the ceiling under their arms. They used a special wooden support called a "Zenpan" to hold the chin up.

"Zenpan" description here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=smNM4ElP3XgC&pg=PA389&lpg=PA389&dq=%22chin+rest%22+zazen&source=bl&ots=ZLtt1aC0fq&sig=iQHgegc98emRx0klcgoLti7d5sc&hl=en&ei=juIyTojFLPHnmAX3gpTxCg&sa=X&oi=book_result&ct=result&resnum=6&ved=0CDEQ6AEwBQ#v=onepage&q=%22chin%20rest%22%20zazen&f=false

Here is one:



It is very easy to fall asleep during Zazen. Brain waves during Zazen are often in state otherwise found during sleep, or which are similar to brain waves in that peaceful place we encounter right before falling asleep while in bed ...

https://web.archive.org/web/20170902131011/http://cat.inist.fr/?aModele=afficheN&cpsidt=3457896

... which is also another reason that we can easily slip over the line into ZZZZZZZZzzzzzz.

But what is my recommendation for sleep time on most days?

I have posted this from time to time on Zazen and sleep (and becoming sleepy during Zazen) ...

The great teacher "Homeless Kodo" Sawaki Roshi said about sleep and Zazen ...

Eat in order to do zazen, sleep in order to do zazen. This means that eating and sleeping are also part of zazen.

In other words, we must be properly fed and rested (not too much, not too little ... ours is the Middle Way) in order to sustain our Practice properly. Get rest.

Of course ... that is if we can. Sometimes, more easily said than done these days. If you do find yourself unavoidably tired (because of your 3 jobs), but also feel your Zazen unavoidable (which it should be most days), follow the words of Uchiyama Roshi ...

Another time you might be tired. Then you have to remind yourself that you are practicing zazen right now, and it is not the time for sleeping. This is correcting your attitude, correcting your posture, really opening the eyes and returning to zazen. This is called “Awakening from dullness and fatigue.”

That is for day to day practice. Find the time which suits you best, morning or evening maybe afternoon, and sit consistently then. Sit with a bit of sleepy Zazen when it happens. If too sleepy, and literally falling of the Zafu, go get some sleep.

If in a Sesshin or other intense retreat, it may be a somewhat different story, and we may wish to push ourselves a bit harder (pushing hard with nothing to attain ... but non-attainng!), Remember the words and actions of Master Dogen's teacher, Master Nyojo (Ryujing)

When staying at Tendo Monastery in China, while the old master Nyojo was abbot there, we sat zazen until about eleven o’clock at night and got up at about half-past two to sit zazen. The abbot sat with the assembly in the sodo, never taking even one night off.

While sitting, many monks fell asleep. The abbot walked around hitting them with his fist or his slipper, scolding them and encouraging them to wake up. If they continued to sleep, he went to the shodo1, rang the bell, and called his attendants to light the candles. On the spur of the moment he would say such things as; “What is the use of sleeping? Why do you gather in a sodo [monk's hall]? Why did you become a monk and enter this monastery?”

One time, his immediate attendant said, “The monks in the sodo are tired and sleepy. They may fall ill or lose their aspiration because of the long hours of sitting. Please shorten the time of zazen.”

Angrily the abbot replied, “We must never do that. People without bodhi-mind who temporarily stay in the sodo would sleep even if we sat for only half an hour or less. Practitioners with bodhi-mind who aspire to practice are happier the longer they are able to sit and therefore, practice much harder. ”
http://global.sotozen-net.or.jp/comm...nki/02-25.html

In bed by 11, up for Zazen at 2:30! Rujing seems like a heck of a drill sargent at the Dharma boot camp!

But on most days ... the advise is to get sleep sufficient to allow Zazen. It is best to sit in the mornings upon awakening, or at night just before bed. But you can pick another time when not so tired too. Then, take a bit of the sleepy zazen when it happens. If it's too sleepy go get some sleep and sit on waking. If falling asleep during Zazen (although discouraged), just do that ... I promise not to beat you with my slipper (and hopefully it will not happen most days ... even Jundo falls asleep on the "sit-a-long" now and then, if you look closely! ops: ) .

If you sit Zazen and it is ZZZZzzzzz, just perfectly ZZZZzzzz!

By the way, just adjusting the posture, opening the eyes a bit more and taking some breaths can help. I stretch my neck just a bit when tired during Zazen, and it seems to help ... as if a tiny string running from the top of my head to the ceiling were given a light tug. Or, one can return to following the breath for awhile. Monks in China and Japan have always had a close relationship to tea and caffeine (in moderation!). At more Sesshin I have attended in Japan or the West, tea and coffee (in moderation!) are always somewhere around.

Master Keizan wrote (in his Zazen Yojinki about the year 1400) ...

Although we shouldn’t be too anxious about bodily comforts, inadequate clothing, food and sleep are known as the "three insufficiencies" and will cause our practice to suffer. ...

... If dullness or sleepiness overcome your sitting, move to the body and open the eyes wider, or place attention above the hairline or between your eyebrows. If you are still not fresh, rub the eyes or the body. If that still doesn’t wake you, stand up and walk, always clockwise. Once you’ve gone about a hundred steps you probably won’t be sleepy any longer. The way to walk is to take a half step with each breath. Walk without walking, silent and unmoving.

If you still don’t feel fresh after doing kinhin, wash your eyes and forehead with cold water. Or chant the Three Pure Precepts of the Bodhisattvas. Do something; don’t just fall asleep. You should be aware of the Great Matter of birth and death and the swiftness of impermanence. What are you doing sleeping when your eye of the Way is still clouded? If dullness and sinking arise repeatedly you should chant, "Habituality is deeply rooted and so I am wrapped in dullness. When will dullness disperse? May the compassion of the Buddhas and Ancestors lift this darkness and misery."

A bit of Kinhin, for a few minutes, can be good when very tired.

There was a master who sat with a heavy object on his head, which would fall with a crash whenever he started to doze ... and another who kept jabbing himself with a needle ... but I don't recommend that!

Gassho, and Good Night, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Sorry to run long and put you to sleep.

[Tomás ESP]

Thank you all for your input and sharing A book that is really helping me learn how to deal with all of this is: "DARE" by Barry Mcdonagh, excellent book for those who suffer from any form of anxiety. Also, thank you Jundo for your continued support

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

[Koushi]

Thank you all for your input and sharing A book that is really helping me learn how to deal with all of this is: "DARE" by Barry Mcdonagh, excellent book for those who suffer from any form of anxiety. Also, thank you Jundo for your continued support

Hi there Tomás!

Along the lines of DARE (Good choice by the way!) other similar books that have helped me with anxiety/panic and the myriad of symptoms that can arise from it, especially prolonged, are "Hope and Help for Your Nerves" by Dr. Claire Weekes and "The Panic Switch" by Jeffrey L. Hamme. They all take the same approach as Barry: Acceptance, understanding, and learning how to not give the symptoms/experiences much importance as our brain thinks we should give them. Not unlike our zazen, in ways.

Gassho,
Koushi
STLaH