Beginner mediation and the weekend pause

[houst0n]

Hi folks!

I hope you're all keeping well in these strange times.

I have a bit of a question for you, which to be honest I kind of already know the answer to; but I'd love to hear another take and some wisened thoughts on it.. So the situation is thus; I've been doing zazen for about 3 months now, at first, it was completely ridiculous to me (and to be fair, it still is).. I mean, I'm staring at a wall for 30 minutes (okay, I worked up to that, first 10, then 15, then 20.. etc).. But, somehow, the connection to those fleeting moments of stillness once I've stopped engaging with my monkey mind has made a lot of the rest of my life more tolerable. I genuinely don't have a goal for this, which is in itself absurd too; but I keep going anyway..

But, ladies and gentlemen, I'm still in the Zen closet..

What do I mean by that? I mean I do it in secret.. It's not that my wife wouldn't understand or accept it (she probably would) but .... but. Yeah. It's hard to explain, I suspect a few of you may understand what I'm getting at here though. It's not that she would think I was even more unhinged than usual, but.. How does one explain to someone they've shared their life with for the last 12 years that actually, they *need* to stare at a wall for 30 minutes in the morning or everything goes out of balance?

I ask this for two reasons:

Firstly, during the week I can easily make time for 30 mins of zazen after I take the kid to kita (kindergarten) and the mrs is at work, my work commitments start about an hour after that -- but at weekends I've not been able to sit zazen yet.. And I find myself getting increasingly crabby the longer I go without zazen the more my practice deepens. And probably here in Germany, my wife will soon be working from home..

Secondly, we recently went on a short holiday, and I managed a measly 10 or 15 minutes maybe twice in the 5 days we were away and it kind of spoiled the holiday for me... Which is totally stupid, but I resented not having the time for myself.. Insane, isn't it?

So I guess the questions are: is it possible to depend too much on zazen? It seems I am guilty of that at the moment -- and how do you cope when you can't do it for a period of time? How did you come out of the zen closet?

I guess that was three questions

Gassho,

Didn't sit today, sorry, I will tomorrow though :}

(Sorry for running long)

[Jundo]

...

But, ladies and gentlemen, I'm still in the Zen closet..

What do I mean by that? I mean I do it in secret.. It's not that my wife wouldn't understand or accept it (she probably would) but .... but. Yeah. It's hard to explain, I suspect a few of you may understand what I'm getting at here though. It's not that she would think I was even more unhinged than usual, but.. How does one explain to someone they've shared their life with for the last 12 years that actually, they *need* to stare at a wall for 30 minutes in the morning or everything goes out of balance?

...

Secondly, we recently went on a short holiday, and I managed a measly 10 or 15 minutes maybe twice in the 5 days we were away and it kind of spoiled the holiday for me... Which is totally stupid, but I resented not having the time for myself.. Insane, isn't it?

So I guess the questions are: is it possible to depend too much on zazen? It seems I am guilty of that at the moment -- and how do you cope when you can't do it for a period of time? How did you come out of the zen closet?

Hi Houston,

First, always remember that, in Shikantaza, we always sit in radical non-attainment, not measuring time or "how long is better" (even though, of course, we sit for a time). You are encouraged to sit the amount of time where one can taste such timeless non-attainment for a time, and which fits into your life. Here is more about that ...

https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/showthread.php?13634-SIT-A-LONG-with-Jundo-Why-Zen-Folks-FAIL%21%21-%285%29-Watching-The-Clock-Rackin-Up-Points

We have many folks with mixed marriages who need to explain to their spouses and friends, so you will get much advice here. My advice is to call it "mindfulness meditation" at first (even though Shikantaza is a bit different from "mindfulness meditation" and there are subtle differences), and show her on the youtube some of those videos of famous people trying it these days. Explain, very simply, that you sit while putting your thoughts and concerns down, and it will make you a better husband. Ask for a little private space in the house to do it each day. Trade her something for it, e.g., you will also dry the dishes or paint the bathroom. Usually, when the spouse sees that it is making their partner a better person to live with, they finally agree that it is a good thing.

No, we do not "depend" on Zazen in the sense of asking something from it or needing it to pay us some profit. However, it is fine to depend on Zazen. We should not be too attached to Zazen, but neither do we have to be not attached to Zazen. Just sit Zazen.

I hope that helps.

Gassho, J

STLah
Sorry to run long


PS - (would you mind to sign a human first name to your posts, maybe add a human face photo, as it keeps things a bit more human around here? Thank you)

[houst0n]

Yep, I will have 'the talk', and thanks so much for the tips.

Apologies for coming across in such a way when I said "a measly 15 minutes"; I was speaking from my personal experience on things though but I don't really retract the statement -- I've definitely noticed in my personal practice that once I started sitting for more than 15 minutes my practice deepened significantly to the point where, I can't help but feel the first 15 minutes are (again, perhaps this is just for me) a kind of 'warm up / settle down period' before the main event as it were.. My brain finally starts shutting the hell up after about 15 minutes and I can experience much easily from there..

All sitting is equal though? I hope no one considers that statement in any way judgmental/matcho. It's certainly not a competition and I don't mean to make any comparison..

Do you disagree though? I mean, it's almost as if I'm just getting started after 15 minutes vs how I feel after double that?

And, yep, Sorry for missing the name part -- I'm Neil :}

Edit: Sorry to edit the post, it's bad forum manners -- but I'm still a bit concerned about how, as a beginner to zazen, I've somehow come to depend on it. I'm definitely projecting something into the practice, I'm keeping a really close eye on it but last week, after 5 days away from my regular practice I really, really missed it. And I resented not being able to do it. Not massively, not in a hateful way, but I really missed my zazen time.. And so, to me, this is a kind of dependency? How would you all feel if you went a week without zazen? Would it genuinely be no problem?

-N

[Bion]

Hi folks!

I hope you're all keeping well in these strange times.

I have a bit of a question for you, which to be honest I kind of already know the answer to; but I'd love to hear another take and some wisened thoughts on it.. So the situation is thus; I've been doing zazen for about 3 months now, at first, it was completely ridiculous to me (and to be fair, it still is).. I mean, I'm staring at a wall for 30 minutes (okay, I worked up to that, first 10, then 15, then 20.. etc).. But, somehow, the connection to those fleeting moments of stillness once I've stopped engaging with my monkey mind has made a lot of the rest of my life more tolerable. I genuinely don't have a goal for this, which is in itself absurd too; but I keep going anyway..

But, ladies and gentlemen, I'm still in the Zen closet..

What do I mean by that? I mean I do it in secret.. It's not that my wife wouldn't understand or accept it (she probably would) but .... but. Yeah. It's hard to explain, I suspect a few of you may understand what I'm getting at here though. It's not that she would think I was even more unhinged than usual, but.. How does one explain to someone they've shared their life with for the last 12 years that actually, they *need* to stare at a wall for 30 minutes in the morning or everything goes out of balance?

I ask this for two reasons:

Firstly, during the week I can easily make time for 30 mins of zazen after I take the kid to kita (kindergarten) and the mrs is at work, my work commitments start about an hour after that -- but at weekends I've not been able to sit zazen yet.. And I find myself getting increasingly crabby the longer I go without zazen the more my practice deepens. And probably here in Germany, my wife will soon be working from home..

Secondly, we recently went on a short holiday, and I managed a measly 10 or 15 minutes maybe twice in the 5 days we were away and it kind of spoiled the holiday for me... Which is totally stupid, but I resented not having the time for myself.. Insane, isn't it?

So I guess the questions are: is it possible to depend too much on zazen? It seems I am guilty of that at the moment -- and how do you cope when you can't do it for a period of time? How did you come out of the zen closet?

I guess that was three questions

Gassho,

Didn't sit today, sorry, I will tomorrow though :}

(Sorry for running long)

I feel like more than anything it’s not your alleged dependance on zazen that’s the issue here, but your need to not keep it a secret. At this point, it’s kind of late to ease into it with her, so I guess just rip the bandage[emoji1]Honesty is always the right choice and then compassionate listening regardless of what her reaction might be.

Good luck [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Dogukan]

Hi Neil!

Thank you for this thread. Interestingly, we're in very similar situations. I'm a beginner and in the Zen closet (I love this term) too. But there are some differences between our situations of course. My grandpa had given up on his plan to be a Gastarbeiter at the last moment in the 60s, so we do not share the same IDs and I'm not married because I have to be more mature for it and it should be legal in Turkey. Well...

I also do it in secret when we share the same house with my parents. Most of the time they live in another city in Turkey, but they come to Istanbul for a few months in winter. So winters turn into privacy season for me. I usually wait to sit Zazen until they go to bed. Explaining my practice to them is not an impossible task, but it's something close to impossible. They're two retired working-class people. The generation they belong to and the education they receive are not well suited to be open to this. So, I don't try to explain because it will only cause confusion and anxiety for them. But I completely came out of the closet as a Zen practitioner to my boyfriend & close friends. Some of them have no idea what was about it, yet they listened and offered me their best wishes.

Then, I would like to say from my experience:

1) I believe that it's possible to depend too much on Zazen. It's very possible to see a lot of Zazen addicts on the internet. They praise their own practice, they brag about the time they sit by implication, they are busy acting like a teacher among other practitioners, etc.
2) I did not need to cope when I can't sit in a day because I didn't skip a day! I'm a dedicated one Well, jokes aside, I've only practicing for 26 days. So, it would be really nice to hear some advice in case I can't do it one day.
3) As I said, I just told my close circle without hesitation. I'm just hiding this from my parents for plausible reasons. Of course, you know your wife and your relationship dynamic is unique to you, but I believe marriage is a very close, maybe the closest relationship between two people. And if I doubt that it would sound illogical when I say it, I would simply say that I do meditate. I believe meditation is a popular thing in Europe and everyone seems to have an opinion on it. So it might be an indirect way to come out of the closet. But I am not sure it feels right or sufficient. Just thinking loudly...

I reserved my seat, extremely curious about the answers of our fellow Treeleafers.

Gassho,
Doğukan.
Sat.

[Bion]

Hi Neil!

Thank you for this thread. Interestingly, we're in very similar situations. I'm a beginner and in the Zen closet (I love this term) too. But there are some differences between our situations of course. My grandpa had given up on his plan to be a Gastarbeiter at the last moment in the 60s, so we do not share the same IDs and I'm not married because I have to be more mature for it and it should be legal in Turkey. Well...

I also do it in secret when we share the same house with my parents. Most of the time they live in another city in Turkey, but they come to Istanbul for a few months in winter. So winters turn into privacy season for me. I usually wait to sit Zazen until they go to bed. Explaining my practice to them is not an impossible task, but it's something close to impossible. They're two retired working-class people. The generation they belong to and the education they receive are not well suited to be open to this. So, I don't try to explain because it will only cause confusion and anxiety for them. But I completely came out of the closet as a Zen practitioner to my boyfriend & close friends. Some of them have no idea what was about it, yet they listened and offered me their best wishes.

Then, I would like to say from my experience:

1) I believe that it's possible to depend too much on Zazen. It's very possible to see a lot of Zazen addicts on the internet. They praise their own practice, they brag about the time they sit by implication, they are busy acting like a teacher among other practitioners, etc.
2) I did not need to cope when I can't sit in a day because I didn't skip a day! I'm a dedicated one Well, jokes aside, I've only practicing for 26 days. So, it would be really nice to hear some advice in case I can't do it one day.
3) As I said, I just told my close circle without hesitation. I'm just hiding this from my parents for plausible reasons. Of course, you know your wife and your relationship dynamic is unique to you, but I believe marriage is a very close, maybe the closest relationship between two people. And if I doubt that it would sound illogical when I say it, I would simply say that I do meditate. I believe meditation is a popular thing in Europe and everyone seems to have an opinion on it. So it might be an indirect way to come out of the closet. But I am not sure it feels right or sufficient. Just thinking loudly...

I reserved my seat, extremely curious about the answers of our fellow Treeleafers.

Gassho,
Doğukan.
Sat.

Proud of your 26 days!!! [emoji3526] It was less first time we talked! Hope I can congratulate you on 260 [emoji1]

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Jundo]

Do you disagree though? I mean, it's almost as if I'm just getting started after 15 minutes vs how I feel after double that?

Shikantaza is a strange animal: Some folks need 30 minutes to truly attain the feeling that "time and attainment does not matter." Some folks need 15 minutes. For other folks, even 3 days is not enough sometimes. Other days (each day is unique), it may take only a snap of the fingers to attain the feeling that "time and attainment does not matter."

Most important point: "time and attainment does not matter."

Gassho, J

STLah

[houst0n]

Hi Neil!

Thank you for this thread. Interestingly, we're in very similar situations. I'm a beginner and in the Zen closet (I love this term) too. But there are some differences between our situations of course. My grandpa had given up on his plan to be a Gastarbeiter at the last moment in the 60s, so we do not share the same IDs and I'm not married because I have to be more mature for it and it should be legal in Turkey. Well...

I also do it in secret when we share the same house with my parents. Most of the time they live in another city in Turkey, but they come to Istanbul for a few months in winter. So winters turn into privacy season for me. I usually wait to sit Zazen until they go to bed. Explaining my practice to them is not an impossible task, but it's something close to impossible. They're two retired working-class people. The generation they belong to and the education they receive are not well suited to be open to this. So, I don't try to explain because it will only cause confusion and anxiety for them. But I completely came out of the closet as a Zen practitioner to my boyfriend & close friends. Some of them have no idea what was about it, yet they listened and offered me their best wishes.

Then, I would like to say from my experience:

1) I believe that it's possible to depend too much on Zazen. It's very possible to see a lot of Zazen addicts on the internet. They praise their own practice, they brag about the time they sit by implication, they are busy acting like a teacher among other practitioners, etc.
2) I did not deed to cope when I can't sit in a day because I didn't skip a day! I'm a dedicated one Well, jokes aside, I've only practicing for 26 days. So, it would be really nice to hear some advice in case I can't do it one day.
3) As I said, I just told my close circle without hesitation. I'm just hiding this from my parents for plausible reasons. Of course, you know your wife and your relationship dynamic is unique to you, but I believe marriage is a very close, maybe the closest relationship between two people. And if I doubt that it would sound illogical when I say it, I would simply say that I do meditate. I believe meditation is a popular thing in Europe and everyone seems to have an opinion on it. So it might be an indirect way to come out of the closet. But I am not sure it feels right or sufficient. Just thinking loudly...

I reserved my seat, extremely curious about the answers of our fellow Treeleafers.

Gassho,
Doğukan.
Sat.

Thank you so much for sharing, definitely I understand this. My father is a hardened west coast Scotland fisherman, it took about 4 years to convince him to try espresso even >_< so.... Zazen may take a bit more explaining too!

I'm not ashamed or anything with my SO; I'll talk to her, but it's somehow a bit of a step between "there's this thing I've been doing for me, to really experience what it is to be me, alone and undistracted" vs "now I have to explain what I'm doing to someone else" -- even when that someone else is the one person who is guaranteed to accept it, right?

And, uhhh.. I definitely am not the kind of person to get into the 'Zazen addict boasting' thing.. Is that really a thing? Practice to me is an absolute focus on the individual by the individual, we can talk to each other about what is going on with our own stuff, but it's really deep introspection alone; who cares who does more minutes on the cushion? Although, I did check out r/zen on reddit and was appalled by the people there..

[houst0n]

Shikantaza is a strange animal: Some folks need 30 minutes to truly attain the feeling that "time and attainment does not matter." Some folks need 15 minutes. For other folks, even 3 days is not enough sometimes. Other days (each day is unique), it may take only a snap of the fingers to attain the feeling that "time and attainment does not matter."

Most important point: "time and attainment does not matter."

Gassho, J

STLah

That's so reassuring to hear. Thank you.

Gassho

*will sit tomorrow*/LAH

:} -Neil

[Jundo]

So, it would be really nice to hear some advice in case I can't do it one day.

Every day of Zazen is only the first day of Zazen. There is no second or third day of Zazen. So, just do Zazen today or, if not today, today which is tomorrow ... and it is only your first day.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Dogukan]

to Bion.
to Neil.
to Jundo for their answers.

Doğukan.
Sat.

[houst0n]

PS - (would you mind to sign a human first name to your posts, maybe add a human face photo, as it keeps things a bit more human around here? Thank you)

I mean, I'm kind of fancy software engineer / ops person, and, honestly even I can't work out how to change my profile picture on this forum >_<

If you need any technical help, please let me know (maybe lets leave it a few months so you know I'm not just another member who vanishes after a week) -- but I can probably help to make things a bit better if you should want to...

[Meian]

can't work out how to change my profile picture on this forum

Hi Houst0n,

Have a look at this forum: https://www.treeleaf.org/forums/foru...-TECHNICAL-FAQ

The stickies at the top of the forum will walk you through how to add a profile picture and more.

gassho, meian st lh

[Sekishi]

2) I did not need to cope when I can't sit in a day because I didn't skip a day! I'm a dedicated one Well, jokes aside, I've only practicing for 26 days. So, it would be really nice to hear some advice in case I can't do it one day.

A couple of reflections that may seem contradictory:

1. On a day you cannot sit Zazen, just don't sit Zazen. Nothing lost, no stories needed.
2. You can nearly always sit Zazen. In the hospital, at the kitchen table, in a parked car, on the train, etc. Lotus posture, incense, bells, and 30 minutes of Shikantaza are very nice, but we can sit without them for 5 minutes too.
3. Sitting in a Zendo of polished wood the moon is clearly visible through the window. We also gain faith that the moon is still there even when sitting in a car in a parking garage during a thunderstorm.

Gassho,
Sekishi

[Dogukan]

1. On a day you cannot sit Zazen, just don't sit Zazen. Nothing lost, no stories needed.
2. You can nearly always sit Zazen. In the hospital, at the kitchen table, in a parked car, on the train, etc. Lotus posture, incense, bells, and 30 minutes of Shikantaza are very nice, but we can sit without them for 5 minutes too.
3. Sitting in a Zendo of polished wood the moon is clearly visible through the window. We also gain faith that the moon is still there even when sitting in a car in a parking garage during a thunderstorm.

Thank you Sekishi for your seemingly contradictory but noncontradictory reflections.

,
Doğukan.