Dealing with meditation and repressed feelings

**Kokuu** · 11-19-2021, 09:05 PM

Hej Neo

Firstly, welcome back. I think we must have joined Treeleaf around the same time. I am glad you got sober and are living a healthier lifestyle but that sounds like a lot of difficult stuff to deal with.

My own practice is based around sitting with pain so, while that is mostly not abject terror (although I have been there too), I find similarly to you that there is an upper limit to what I can deal with. This is especially true in Shikantaza which brings us face-to-face with what is going on without any cushion or barrier.

My advice, based on what you have said and my own practice and experience, which you are free to take or leave, is that it is difficult to sit when feelings are overwhelming as it can feel like being swept away by a tsunami. For me, breath awareness can provide an anchor which gives some support but may also not be enough. I do not think that repression is the answer but you seem to have found wisdom already in that at some times you have "been allowing just a little bit more than usual of this pain into my body". So, I would go with that as much as you can but don't try to force it. Jon Kabat-Zinn, who teaches mindfulness-based practices in response to physical and emotional pain talks about dipping your toe in the waters of pain rather than diving in head first. Go slowly and gently. You may not be able to practice in the way you might like straight away, but we practice with where we are. So, while I would not repress what is happening, I would also not advise facing all of it head on all at once.

When I start sitting and there is too much pain or fear, I sometimes wait to see if it might subside, and sometimes just stop. Shikantaza is not an endurance test and while we should not give up because of moderate discomfort, I do not think it is helpful to try to sit with serious physical or emotional pain. Often we recommend a practice of 'little and often' insta-Zazen sessions of two to three minutes regularly through the day rather than one long sit. That might work for you.

Several other things are that after your body and nervous system have been so used to living one way, with dopamine rewards to much of your behaviour, it is understandable that it is going to take time for your body to learn to live another way, but I think it is entirely possible to come back to life which feels full and vibrant. However, that may take time.

I would also greatly recommend working with a therapist if you are not already. Your situation sounds very much like one that can be helped by spiritual practice, but will almost certainly also require input from people who specialise in working with what you are going through. We can only give so much advice.

In any case, it is great to see you back here and I hope we can be of help and support. My main advice is take it easy and be gentle with yourself. Zazen is, in my experience, great, but when we are dealing with intense situations a little sitting can go a long way. I wonder also if a practice like tonglen or chanting the metta verses might be of help to you?

Others, including Jundo, may be able to offer more.

Much metta for you and all that are going through similar.

Gassho
Kokuu
-sattodaylah-

**Nengyoku** · 11-19-2021, 09:31 PM

Hello Neo,

I'm sure many other people here will be able to give you better advice or kinder words than I can, and so I just wanted to leave you with something that helped me recently.
A recent talk from the Upaya Dharma Podcasts by Dr. Richard Schwartz talks about treating our internal components with compassion so that we can eventually deal with the trauma we experienced.
He personifies the different parts of our personalities that inhabit our body and talks about how they create defense mechanisms that protect us from reliving traumatic experiences. His focus is on how it is important to treat these parts of our mentality with compassion, and he does it in a way that reminds me of the reminder during metta practice that we have to offer compassion for ourselves so that we can offer it to others.

He does a bit of a guided practice at the end of that episode that helped me deal with some of the anger I would experience when encountering a triggering experience.

I hope maybe it can help some, but I have to echo what has already been said - that it sounds like you will need the help of a therapist to really work through your trauma.

Remember that you are the person most worthy of your own unconditional love, and I wish you the best of health and circumstances. I hope something we have said might help here.

Gassho,
William
SatLah

**Amelia** · 11-19-2021, 10:59 PM

I second what Kokuu said about perhaps addressing these feelings with a therapist if you can. Jundo has said that when zazen brings out such a strong response, it is perhaps best not to attempt sitting until the issue is addressed.

Gassho
Sat, lah

Sent from my SM-G950U using Tapatalk

**Jundo** · 11-19-2021, 11:53 PM

Originally posted by Neo

Every time I sit down to meditate (which isn't a regular thing due to the issue I'm about to describe). I'm IMMIDEATLY faced with at terror, a pain, an energy charged of a thousand mad bulls, wanting to come up to conscious awareness. When I try to allow this, to let the repressed feelings to come up in fully, I often end up on the floor screaming in pain, in terror, sweaty. Sometimes when I manage to, even though it's extremely painful, allow some of this energy to have life in my body, it makes my face or upper body warm, which makes me think the repression is shame or anger. This energy is also located to my left leg, because I can feel an "unease" there all the time. And when I try to allow this pain, my left leg starts to hurt a lot. I know I will not be free ever, until I make friends with all parts of my self. I just don't know how to actually develop the courage to go through this, it's so overwhelming. It's hart to try to be "zenlike" and just focus on your breath and feel like a summer spring when the only thing I'm facing when I sit down, alone, in quiet, is this pure terror. Should I try to keep repressing these feelings and just count my breaths? Something about that feels totally off. Repression feels like the wrong way to go.

Are there any zen/buddhist literature that focuses on how to deal with this? My whole being resists these dark energies, and I feel like I will die if I start allowing that is being constantly repressed by my conscious mind.

Hello Neo,

I am going to recommend that you IMMEDIATELY find a trained and licensed mental health professional expert in depression and trauma and talk to them IMMEDIATELY. They can help you get past this. In the meantime, please stop sitting Zazen until the doctor approves your sitting, and you feel ready to do so. If you feel compelled to sit anyway, just do so for a few minutes at a time if it is helping to relax you, only so long as you feel that it is helping and comfortable and the panic is not rising, and just select a word as a soothing mantra (it can be anything of your choosing which gives a good feeling in your heart, something soothing and calming) and just repeat and repeat that mantra with every deep exhalation, focusing on the calming word. Use the mantra only so long as it is relaxing you and seems to make you feel more relaxed and better, and STOP even that if anything is making you feel worse right now.

If the doctor approves, and you feel up to it, you can return to attempting Shikantaza later.

There is nothing wrong at all with seeing a psychologist.

Zazen is -NOT- a cure for many things ... it will not fix a bad tooth (just allow you to be present with the toothache ... you had better see a dentist, not a Zen teacher), cure cancer (although it may have some healthful effects and make one more attune to the process of chemotherapy and/or dying), etc. Zen practice will not cure your acne on your face, or fix your flat tire. All it will do is let one "be at one, and whole" ... TRULY ONE ... with one's pimples and punctured wheel, accepting and embracing of each, WHOLLY WHOLE with/as each one. There are many psychological problems or psycho/medical problems such as alcoholism that may require other therapies, although Zen can be part of a 12-Step program or such (a few Zen teachers in America with a drinking problem had to seek outside help). My feeling is that some things are probably best handled by medical, psychological or psychiatric treatment, not Zen teachers.

My feeling is that receiving outside treatment, medication AND "just sitting" can all work together WHEN the doctor approves and your heart feels right.

My guess is that the trauma and energy is not actually "in" your left leg, but for some psychologically reason you are placing it there mentally.

After you talk to your therapist, and he approves your sitting, we can talk more about what is best.

Keep us posted, and I offer Metta for how you are doing. You will be better. I, like many of us here, have gone through periods of depression in the past, and it does pass if taken care of (me, I have been okay for several decades now).

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

**Tairin** · 11-20-2021, 03:32 PM

Metta for Neo and for all who suffer

Please take Jundo’s advice and seek professional help.

Tairin
Sat today and lah

**Shonin** · 11-20-2021, 10:33 PM

As one who suffers to some degree with what you struggle with I too would advise you to get professional mental health related help. Don't be afraid to shop around if you feel that isn't helping. I have had good therapists and bad therapists.

As the wise ones have spoken

, I agree with what they say. If zazen is too emotionally painful stop it. It does help me personally with my own issues. But at this phase in your life it sounds like it does more harm then good.Set it aside for a bit and take it up again when you have a better grasp of your mental woes.

Dave
SAT/LAH

**Inshin** · 11-21-2021, 12:15 PM

Spiritual path often means facing what we were running away from and any form of meditation, even gentle Shikantaza can bring those things up to the surface. There was a time when meditation brought up scary things and trauma I wasn't even aware of. I didn't want to retraumatise myself, I couldn't face it by myself. I've stopped meditating. I was lucky to find skilful mental health specialist who helped me through healing from depression. When it was safe I have returned to meditation and further depended my practice. Depression can be cured and worked with. There's a light at the end of this dark tunel. Seek help. I truly wish for you to find someone capable who will skilfully help you through this process. Much metta, much courage.

Gassho
Sat

**Neo** · 11-21-2021, 12:23 PM

Thank you all for your kind words, really thank you.

I'm afraid meditation (spiritual practice) is the end of the line for me, it's because of spiritual practice why I am still alive, why I am 5 years sober today. Not because of any "modern help", modern help has failed me. I've been trying many therapists, some better than others. Right now I'm flat broke and I can't honestly find a good therapist, in Sweden they are extremely rare and expensive.

Thank you Shinshin for your advices. I'm quite interested in the new therapy "Internal family systems", saying just what you are saying about our parts.

Ignorance run suffering, buddha stated. Meditation is to become familiar with, the truth, the truth about my self and the nature of suffering that comes from not seeing the truth. I've al ready fallen way long down the rabbit hole, there's no way back for me. I will stake everything on truth soon, and I don't care if I'm obliviated in the process. Soon I'm seeking truth as a drowning man is seeking air.

So, even though I respect your concerns for me, there's no security in life. I'm going to keep going with my spiritual practice weather you think it's a good idea or not.

In here I'm simply asking for your own experiences with going through painful emotions in zazen, and maybe some encouragement to develop the courage to stay with whatever may arise in my practice. I find courage reading "three pillars of zen", and hearing the stories of all people who broken through because of consistency and pure spirit, even when faces with enormous amounts of physical and emotional pain. I don't think there's any other way for me. The obstacle is the path.

thanks, thanks.

**Meian** · 11-21-2021, 12:47 PM

I'm quite interested in the new therapy "Internal family systems", saying just what you are saying about our parts.

I've seen this before, a while ago, and it seemed quite useful. Unfortunately, the one who was promoting it and describing how it worked (at the time), had not done much work on his own healing, and so his personal issues got mixed up in the teachings he was giving in the practice group he had started. So, I did not stay. However, I appreciated the rationale behind the concept itself -- it made sense to me.

I cannot agree nor disagree with your decision. I'm only giving an opinion on the internal family systems concept, because I am somewhat familiar with it (having experienced some of it), and (speaking for myself only) I would consider exploring it again. That doesn't mean I recommend it for you, only that this is something I personally would revisit for my own healing.

I wish you well and hope your healing will be gentle on you, wherever your path leads you.

gassho, meian stlh

**Jundo** · 11-21-2021, 02:22 PM

Originally posted by Neo

Thank you all for your kind words, really thank you.

I'm afraid meditation (spiritual practice) is the end of the line for me, it's because of spiritual practice why I am still alive, why I am 5 years sober today. Not because of any "modern help", modern help has failed me. I've been trying many therapists, some better than others. Right now I'm flat broke and I can't honestly find a good therapist, in Sweden they are extremely rare and expensive.

Thank you Shinshin for your advices. I'm quite interested in the new therapy "Internal family systems", saying just what you are saying about our parts.

Ignorance run suffering, buddha stated. Meditation is to become familiar with, the truth, the truth about my self and the nature of suffering that comes from not seeing the truth. I've al ready fallen way long down the rabbit hole, there's no way back for me. I will stake everything on truth soon, and I don't care if I'm obliviated in the process. Soon I'm seeking truth as a drowning man is seeking air.

So, even though I respect your concerns for me, there's no security in life. I'm going to keep going with my spiritual practice weather you think it's a good idea or not.

In here I'm simply asking for your own experiences with going through painful emotions in zazen, and maybe some encouragement to develop the courage to stay with whatever may arise in my practice. I find courage reading "three pillars of zen", and hearing the stories of all people who broken through because of consistency and pure spirit, even when faces with enormous amounts of physical and emotional pain. I don't think there's any other way for me. The obstacle is the path.

thanks, thanks.

Neo,

I think this is very risky.

First, in Sweden, don't you have some national health insurance for therapy? Therapists are like spiritual teachers or restaurants: There may be many that are not so good until you find the good one. So, please don't stop looking! You may find the psychologist right for you.

Second, "Three Pillars of Zen" is my least favorite "Zen" book because of its early, very extreme and unusual emphasis on a high pressure "push" toward Kensho which is rejected by most Zen teachers I know. It was the flavor of the Sanbokyodan cult that it came from 70 years ago. ESPECIALLY, it is VERY DANGEROUS to try those high intensity methods without a Sangha and gifted teacher close by who might help guide you ... so I VERY MUCH say DO NOT ATTEMPT THIS on you own.

I would say to you, again, that Zazen can go hand-in-hand with counselling for best result. So, find a good counsellor, and please do the Mantra meditation on a soothing word until you do.

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

Sorry to run long

**Rich** · 11-21-2021, 09:16 PM

Strong cardio exercise like jogging and bowing helped me. Am reading a book by gopi krishna who went through crazy energy before awakening so it happens to a lot of people. May you feel better soon

Sat/lah

**Nanrin** · 11-22-2021, 04:31 AM

Originally posted by Neo

So, even though I respect your concerns for me, there's no security in life. I'm going to keep going with my spiritual practice weather you think it's a good idea or not.

In here I'm simply asking for your own experiences with going through painful emotions in zazen, and maybe some encouragement to develop the courage to stay with whatever may arise in my practice.

Hello Neo,

My experience with sitting with painful emotions in zazen is to know my limits.

I sat almost every day for years, with all of the ups and downs of life, but for much of this last year, I have had very intense emotions arise while sitting. At first I sat with it, but as time passed, things only got worse. So I stopped sitting, and instead I did as Jundo advised you - contact a doctor and start medication or therapy as needed. While working on things with proper help I would occasionally try sitting, but when it was too painful I stopped. Most days I didn't sit for longer than a minute. After many months of treatment, I am now back to sitting everyday without the intense pain. While it still comes up most days, I am now in a place where I can sit with it in equanimity instead of getting trapped in dark and dangerous thoughts and emotions.

From my experience staying in temples here in Thailand, I noticed that most new monks who aren't in a good, stable mental or emotional place are not told to meditate - they tend to be given a lot of chores to do, and are rarely left alone for long periods of time. After years of chores, their minds eventually calm down sufficiently that they are then instructed to sit.

If you want to do spiritual practice regardless, do as Jundo suggests - try using a mantra for short sits and stop immediately if things take a turn for the worse. Another approach I used while I wasn't able to sit was to light incense and chant - perhaps you may wish to add that to your daily routine.

Gassho,

Nanrin

Sat today

**Jundo** · 11-22-2021, 02:26 PM

Neo,

Will you do me a favor. Please contact these folks. No, you are not in need of their services, not suicidal at all, but maybe they can hook you up with someone just to speak with ...

Självmordslinjen (https://mind.se/hitta-hjalp/sjalvmordslinjen/) is a registered non-profit organisation[39] that has worked with mental health since 1931.[39] The organisation provides a 24-hour email, chat and hotline service, all of which are toll-free.[40] Självmordslinjen can be reached at 90101.

Gassho, J

STLah

**Jundo** · 11-23-2021, 01:12 AM

Neo,

I am closing this thread. You may still communicate with me privately, if you wish. However, my request stands: I would like you to seek medical and psychological examination of your symptoms, and stop all Zazen now (except the mantra meditation I suggested, but only to the extent you feel that it is relaxing you.) After you are consulting with a doctor, and the doctor approves, we could discuss the best way for you to resume Zazen with a teacher and Sangha, and where.

Don't be stubborn and refuse because, while what you are describing may be spiritual, I believe it more likely to be a health issue that will only continue to interfere with both your whole life and Zen practice specifically.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

Dealing with meditation and repressed feelings

Dealing with meditation and repressed feelings

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