Is Our Understanding of the Heart Sutra All Wrong?

[Kyōsen]

Very interesting! In a way "non-apprehension" makes more sense from an experiential standpoint than "non-attainment" which seems more ontological, to me; given Jundo's notion that non-apprehension refers to not getting "hung up" on sense information. Yet "non-attainment" is still very useful, too.

Gassho
Kyōsen
Sat|LAH

[Jundo]

Isn't the absence of sense experience the same as not self? What is there without sense experience?

Sat today

Well, the complete absence of sense experience would be death, coma or, at least, a deep meditation state so removed from this life that it is like reaching the blank white screen in the movie theatre, but missing the movie!

On of the tricks of the Zen fellow is to experience and savor the movie (this world and life) and yet know that it is something of a theatrical production, and there is a light and wholeness that holds it all together. Then one can watch the film, with all its comedy and tragedy, jump right in and live each scene ... and yet not be excessively hung up in it either.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Bion]

Isn't the absence of sense experience the same as not self? What is there without sense experience?

Sat today

Well, animals have sense experience, and even plants do, yet we are not entirely sure whether they have a sense of self. The “self” we identify with has to do with our idea that somehow we are a standalone entity, different from the rest of existence, unique and self-reliant. There is however nothing about us, or our thoughts, conceptualizations, or emotions that stems from ourselves and is not a product of everything else or rather, an EXTENSION of everything else.

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Tairin]

Well, animals have sense experience, and even plants do, yet we are not entirely sure whether they have a sense of self. The “self” we identify with has to do with our idea that somehow we are a standalone entity, different from the rest of existence, unique and self-reliant.

Just sit and watch any cat for more than a few moments and it will be clear they have a sense of self. I would think all animals have a sense of self. Plants too. But i think it is possible to have a sense of self without necessarily identifying as a “standalone entity , different from the rest of existence “. I think we humans add that second part somehow thinking that “self” means “separate”.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Bion]

Just sit and watch any cat for more than a few moments and it will be clear they have a sense of self. I would think all animals have a sense of self. Plants too. But i think it is possible to have a sense of self without necessarily identifying as a “standalone entity , different from the rest of existence “. I think we humans add that second part somehow thinking that “self” means “separate”.


Tairin
Sat today and lah

Yeah that is what I meant. The pondering of life and death, existential issues, sense of “who” someone is, rather than a sense of body-ness, or mine-ness, which are natural and necessary.

I talk to Sekishi about the wonders of the animal mind quite a lot, so this is making me revisit those chats!

[emoji1374] SatToday

[Paul Nyima]

"-----that all 5 skandhas are empty"

Heart Sutra