On the issue of Soto Zen as a religion

[Shinshou]

“De-intellectualizing”. I really like this and I am with you on this. One of my commitments to myself on joining Treeleaf was to just live this practice and not engage in the discussions that veer towards being mostly mental gymnastics .

I was going to say that the way I relate to Zen - and the way many in this sangha seem to relate to it - is that of a practice. Like others, I'm not sure the distinction is important to me, but if a non-Buddhist asked if Zen was a religion, I'd probably say yes. After all, to do something "religiously" means to do it regularly without fail, not necessarily with some spiritual belief in place.

Shinshou (Daniel)
Sat Today

[Shonin Risa Bear]

FWIW I tend to regard "religion" as a noun.

gassho
d. shonin sat/lent a hand today

[Synjin]

Yes and no, It is and it Isn't. In the end, they're just labels so it doesn't really matter to me.

Gassho, John
Sat/LAH

[Shonin Risa Bear]

_()_

gassho
d. shonin sat/lah

[Jundo]

That is just silly and, if anything, the exact opposite of what happened historically in the 19th century in Japan and elsewhere as Buddhists sought to strip Buddhism of many ages old religious elements in order to present Buddhism to the world as a modern and "scientific" belief system. Some wonderful books and articles on the topic;

https://www.oxfordbibliographies.com/view/document/obo-9780195393521/obo-9780195393521-0041.xml

Also from Wikipedia Roshi:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Buddhist_modernism

Gassho, Jundo

STLah

I need to correct what I said a bit. It is true that the Japanese did not particularly have the word "religion" until westerners and their missionaries came (or its Japanese equivalent, Shukkyo, which means something like "Sect Teaching"). They just had what they had. Still, I would say that it was pretty much as I described with beliefs and practices to get in good with the universe or just get grandpa a good rebirth after he died. It was a "religion."

Gassho, J

STLah

[Soka]

I might tell people that Zen is Buddhist practice stripped of the religious aspects, but then I can be found facing a wall, chanting, with a Rakusu on my head. What a strange sight my non-religion must be .

Gassho,
Phill / Sōka
sat

[John.3]

I have been thinking about this for a little while and I feel that not calling Zen a religion somehow waters it down for me.

I get that this is mostly semantics, that Zen is ultimately a practice, but it means everything to me and is a major part of my moment to moment life, and so calling it a religion makes more sense to me.

I was raised religious, and have been involved with various religions for most of my life so I suppose some of this is just comfort level with the term.

The other part of it is, some of my family members don't quite understand why I have gone down the Zen path, and they would rather think of it as a simple practice (or phase) rather than a religious path. Hearing them talk about zen like that sort of cheapens it, because I feel like it minimizes how important it is in my life and how much I have grown and overcome since starting in Zen.

Sorry for running long!

Gassho,
John
Sat today

Sent from my LG-H910 using Tapatalk

[adahee]

John.3, I've struggled with that question many times especially in discussions with my family. I've taken an "audience" approach that seems to work for me. If my audience sees my practice as a religion, then I refer to it as a religion. If not, I refer to it as a practice. Either way my audience's opinion can not reduce the importance and regard I hold for my "religious practice" (see what I did there? LOL).

I hope that helps in some small way.

Gassho,
Steve (from deep in the religious South)
sat

[Shonin]

Sometimes I feel a pull to more religious dressing(seeing any personification as archetypal). Sometimes I just sit and don't think about all that.

Dave

Sat/LAH

[Doshin]

I have learned from this post. Thank you.

Over 50 years ago I walked away from religion because it seemed made up of hypocrites, fairytales and was responsible for many crimes against humanity throughout time. As the decades passed and the passions of a rebellious youth subsided I saw that religion provided comfort, meaning and purpose for many. I began to appreciate it as a “practice” to guide people through life and it was not religion that encompassed the qualities I rejected but some of its practitioners. Some of that growth comes from 41 years of being married to an Orthodox Christian who practices Christian values.

However the word “religion” still makes me uncomfortable. So when this post started I hung in there to challenge my views. Though I see Zen as my practice and not my religion I accept the assertions of many above that embrace it as a religion. That all makes sense to me now. Though when people ask my religion (not sure if anyone ever has and I never talk about it nor ask them theirs) I would probably say none or maybe Nature we are all one with (if I feel in the mood to be challenging which has been greatly reduced with age and possibly a result of decades of Zazen).

Thank you all for the teaching. An old dog can learn new tricks. You provided me a teaching moment.

Sorry to go long, this post caused me to explore my paradigm.

Doshin
St

[Tai Shi]

I will speak briefly. Mt father sees my practice as a religion, and images of the Buddha as idol worship. He cannot break free of centuries of misunderstanding. He has seen my beautiful poems, some Buddhist, on Facebook. I have posted our Zazenkai recording on my page. Perhaps he doesn't know what to make of them. We have been friends op Facebook for a decade or maybe 12 years. By now, he has seen much of Buddhist handiwork. So, I believe he won't invite me to fly from South Dakota to California. This is my practice, to allow life to unfold.
Gassho
sat/ lah
Tai Shi

[Stewart]

I’m currently reading ‘The British Discovery of Buddhism’ by Philip Almond (CUP 1988) and it is clear that this debate has been going on in the West since the 1850s and seems to get nowhere. It feels like one of those questions that should be answered with a ‘noble silence’ as a pointless distraction.

Stewart
Sat

[Tai Shi]

I sat this Monday for 45 minutes, began with Onkai and another person after they had started, interrupted by fake, then sitting again to after folks had gone. No problem sitting alone. Nice to see others.
Gassho
sat/ lah


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[Kaishin]

When people ask me what my religion is I always answer that I am not religious.

Same. I don't consider myself a Buddhist or any -ist. Nishijima Roshi called Zen a "philosophy of action" -- sounds OK to me. I just practice zazen and try to be a decent human.

-satToday

[Ryumon]

Same. I don't consider myself a Buddhist or any -ist. Nishijima Roshi called Zen a "philosophy of action" -- sounds OK to me. I just practice zazen and try to be a decent human.

-satToday

What he said. I say that I'm a student of Zen Buddhism.

Gassho,

Ryūmon

sat