Attaining something in Zazen

[Risho]

I feel like I do not have much trust or faith in life in this moment. Always searching for some kind of "pointing" that liberates me from suffering. A form of spiritual materialism.

Every single one of us does this - that's why it's practice.

Gassho

Risho
-stlah

[JimInBC]

If there is no intrinsic freedom that still needs to be "recognized", why sit?

The tougher question for me is if there is no rebirth, why sit? Yeah, sitting might have a positive impact on outlook and mood, but so do many practices and diversions. As well as number of medications. And if there is no rebirth, we all escape samsara when we die - whether we sit or not.

So I admit my practice has largely died out since switching to Zen. [emoji846]

Why did the Buddha and Dogen sit for long periods of time for many years?

Buddha sat because he didn't believe in an intrinsic freedom, he believed in a path to liberation from samsara.

Nagarjuna started the evolution from Buddha to Zen when he introduced emptiness, but it seems Buddha nature and intrinsic freedom really didn't enter the picture until Buddhism merged with Taoism. So thinking about the Buddha and intrinsic freedom is probably anarchronistic.

I haven't studied enough Dogen to have an opinion on Dogen.

Is it enough to sit 20-40 minutes a day in Zazen to discover who we truly are?

Probably not?

I remember hearing John Daido Loori speak about the question of time on the mat. He talked about the monastics there who sat 3 hours a day and did monthly Sesshin, and how you just aren't going to get the same results sitting a half hour a day and doing a Sesshin or two a year.

On the other hand, I've heard Shinzen Young say that 20 minutes a day, plus some intensive retreats and a teacher, is enough.

So the other side to my opening "probably not," is "Maybe?"

- Should we not spend the time that we dedicate to other "less important activities", such as binge-watching Netflix, reading hundreds of books, etc. to full-hearted zazen?

Depending on context.

In the Pali Canon the Buddha lays out a hierarchy of activities, based on the goal of achieving liberation from rebirth.

If one sits Zazen to attain/not-attain whatever we want to call what we attain/don't-attain from practicing Zen, then yes, it makes sense to devote more time to Zazen than to reading and Netflix.

That said, I think it is important to remember that there is nothing fundamentally less important about reading or Netflix except relative to a system or goal. If one adopts a science-based view I would say other than some proof that MBSR reduces anxiety there is very little evidence for sitting. There is no spirit in our bodies, so no spiritual life. There is no room in a universe determined by the laws of physics for free will. There is no purpose or meaning intrinsic to the universe or to being human - only the purposes or meanings we give them. Which for most of us in the West means values we inherited (largely unexamined) from Christianity. We sit because it fits a Zen narrative we have adopted, not due to any evidence or intrinsic meaning of the activity. If that particular narrative reduces our suffering, increases contentment, gives meaning, etc. and one actually likes sitting more than Netflix, then sit. (Given the improbability of free will if one follows the logical consequences of the modern scientific worldview, one might not be choosing but choicelessly observing the laws of physics unfold when we sit or don't sit anyway.) If one finds it unhelpful or difficult to sit, books or Netflix or playing the piano or whatever moves one are all fine activities, too.

If there is rebirth then the Noble Eightfold Path is of supreme importance. If the modern materialistic worldview is true, then sitting is one activity among many. Do it if it's your jam. Don't do it if it's not. It might be illusion that you are even making the choice anyway.

Thoughtful questions! Thanks!

Gassho, Jim
ST/LaH

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[Jundo]

The tougher question for me is if there is no rebirth, why sit? Yeah, sitting might have a positive impact on outlook and mood, but so do many practices and diversions. As well as number of medications. And if there is no rebirth, we all escape samsara when we die - whether we sit or not.

So I admit my practice has largely died out since switching to Zen. [emoji846]

Who said that there is no rebirth? One is reborn as all this world, each baby and blade of grass, which are our 10,000 other faces (as much as your left eye is your right eye on the left!). Our good or harmful acts have consequences which impact the world, not only our own present life, but the lives of sentient beings near and far, rippling onward, endlessly through time.

If you are mainly interested in what this practice can do for YOUR PERSONAL rebirths, then that would be a selfish attitude, plus hopeless from a Buddhist point of view, as there is no "YOUR PERSONAL" beyond the little self! In our Bodhisattva Vow, our practice is never for ourself alone, but for rescue of all sentient beings everywhere, now or then, here and far. In fact, your fixation on your desires for "YOUR PERSONAL" is the root of all Dukkha! Though some folks practice for what "I" can get out of it, there is no "I" nor "not I" which can be gotten! There is never an "our self," and all is our self, True Self, No Self which is All Selves. The Buddha's realization under the Bodhi Tree: "I and all beings together realize enlightenment." Above and Below, All are the Honored One Alone.

Buddha sat because he didn't believe in an intrinsic freedom, he believed in a path to liberation from samsara.

Yes, we believe this too. Better said, we believe both.

We are already liberated, always were and always will be, but most sentient being do not realize so. They bury this fact in greed, anger and divided thinking in ignorance. Thus, we must walk the path to realize so, acting in peace and gentleness in every step, embodying the Buddhist way.

If someone thinks, "I am already liberated, thus I don't need to do anything," then they do not understand. If someone thinks that liberation is lifetimes away, and not in this immediate thought, word and act right here and now, and what one chooses to do with it for good or bad, then they do not understand.

That said, I think it is important to remember that there is nothing fundamentally less important about reading or Netflix except relative to a system or goal.

There may be a time to watch some Netflix, but there is also a time to sit Zazen, and times to put this Path into Practice in each moment.

We believe in free will, thus we freely choose to sit. One sits, as the Buddha chose to sit under the Tree. One sits as the morning star shining, nothing lacking nor anything to add to this shining light.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[Bion]

Who said that there is no rebirth? One is reborn as all this world, each baby and blade of grass, which are our 10,000 other faces (as much as your left eye is your right eye on the left!). Our good or harmful acts have consequences which impact the world, not only our own present life, but the lives of sentient beings near and far, rippling onward, endlessly through time.

If you are mainly interested in what this practice can do for YOUR PERSONAL rebirths, then that would be a selfish attitude, plus hopeless from a Buddhist point of view, as there is no "YOUR PERSONAL" beyond the little self! In our Bodhisattva Vow, our practice is never for ourself alone, but for rescue of all sentient beings everywhere, now or then, here and far. In fact, your fixation on your desires for "YOUR PERSONAL" is the root of all Dukkha! Though some folks practice for what "I" can get out of it, there is no "I" nor "not I" which can be gotten! There is never an "our self," and all is our self, True Self, No Self which is All Selves. The Buddha's realization under the Bodhi Tree: "I and all beings together realize enlightenment." Above and Below, All are the Honored One Alone.



Yes, we believe this too. Better said, we believe both.

We are already liberated, always were and always will be, but most sentient being do not realize so. They bury this fact in greed, anger and divided thinking in ignorance. Thus, we must walk the path to realize so, acting in peace and gentleness in every step, embodying the Buddhist way.

If someone thinks, "I am already liberated, thus I don't need to do anything," then they do not understand. If someone thinks that liberation is lifetimes away, and not in this immediate thought, word and act right here and now, and what one chooses to do with it for good or bad, then they do not understand.



There may be a time to watch some Netflix, but there is also a time to sit Zazen, and times to put this Path into Practice in each moment.

We believe in free will, thus we freely choose to sit. One sits, as the Buddha chose to sit under the Tree. One sits as the morning star shining, nothing lacking nor anything to add to this shining light.

Gassho, J

SatTodayLAH

[emoji1374]

SatToday

[Jundo]

Is it enough to sit 20-40 minutes a day in Zazen to discover who we truly are?

Probably not?

I remember hearing John Daido Loori speak about the question of time on the mat. He talked about the monastics there who sat 3 hours a day and did monthly Sesshin, and how you just aren't going to get the same results sitting a half hour a day and doing a Sesshin or two a year.

On the other hand, I've heard Shinzen Young say that 20 minutes a day, plus some intensive retreats and a teacher, is enough.

So the other side to my opening "probably not," is "Maybe?"

One can be goal oriented in practice, reaching for special states and pushing hard, all to realize in the end that there was no place to go not always here and all around.

Sometimes we sit long, sometimes we sit short ... but ALWAYS sit beyond measure, time, with no points to rack up. Truly, each moment of Zazen is timeless, and holds all time in each instant. Do not think "before" or "after," for there is no before or after this very moment, right now, when we sit Zazen. There is no goal to attain, and the attaining of such is liberation.

Thus, one sits each day; sometimes we sit long and sometimes short.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tai Shi]

I don't attain special or non-special. I don't stain at all. That's not the same and it is the same thing over and over again I attain nothing like something and nothing. Those things are going to not get anything. Language doesn't mean I guess or I don't guess.Because it's not languages but sitting just sitting just noticed nothing special but just sit. Let's sit
Gassho
sat/ lah
Tai Shi

[Jundo]

[Jundo]

PS - Someone else on another site just asked: "What to do when sitting seems pointless?"

I advise: TRUST, with total unvoiced FAITH deep in the marrow of the bones, that THIS VERY SITTING is the fulfillment of anything and everything ever to be desired or had in life, the one place to be, the only act to do in all the universe in this very moment of sitting, with sitting the pinnacle of the mountain and the arrival at the goal in sitting itself, one's sitting sat as all Buddhas and Ancestors sitting with one's very ass! That should help.

[Meian]

PS - Someone else on another site just asked: "Ahat to do when sitting seems pointless?"

I advise: TRUST, with total unvoiced FAITH deep in the marrow of the bones, that THIS VERY SITTING is the fulfillment of anything and everything ever to be desired or had in life, the one place to be, the only act to do in all the universe in this very moment of sitting, with sitting the pinnacle of the mountain and the arrival at the goal in sitting itself, one's sitting sat as all Buddhas and Ancestors sitting with one's very ass! That should help.

Gassho2
meian st lh

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[Tai Shi]

Sitting and meditation have made me the gentle soul I am happy today and getting along with my wife which I fought for years. Now she helps me with breathe when I am in horror pain. And we have found out who we are together. She wearable a peace Tee Shirt and I call it her Buddha shirt and we breathe together and play Pokémon go.
Gassho
sat/ lah
Tai Shi


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[Inshin]

I don't attain special or non-special. I don't stain at all.
Gassho
sat/ lah
Tai Shi

I'm not sure if you meant to write "attain" rather than "stain" but that sentence just came out perfectly and it summarises one of my motivations in practice : not to stain the original nature with "me" "mine" "I". Not to stain Zazen with clinging to ideas of what it should be like, just sit and be who I really am.

Gassho
Sat

[Tom A.]

Maybe the only thing to emphasize to strive for and to attain is to leave the world a better place?

Gassho,
Tom

SatLah

[Tai Shi]

I this Shikantaza is only "meditation" I do. Yet I know it is just sitting, not meditation, and just begging less, born of my body, mouth and mind, which I stop. Today I began Tonglen practice not doing anything, Shikantaza just sitting, nothing for myself not self, then take in I have sat for nothing, just sit. Now others, I'm different, benefactor, one who is not benefactor, community, universe. Then a little different I reach for noting in myself.
Gassho
sat/ lah
Tai Shi

[Tomás ESP]

Sit with faith that there is nothing more needed or lacking, until one feels that nothing more is needed or lacking ... then nothing more is needed or lacking.

Very easy.

This is starting to make more sense now. Having that full trust in life, this attitude of "Just This Is It" is actually very healing for the pain and trauma I experience. Remembering this during the day is very helpful too.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

[Jundo]

Just This Is It

I need to copyright that!

Such a shame that some other Soto Teacher used it a few centuries before us.

https://www.shambhala.com/just-this-is-it-3458.html

Gassho, J

STLah