Attaining something in Zazen

[Tomás ESP]

I wanted to rekindle the discussion on this topic after the video I posted yesterday, if that is okay. As most of you will know, Dogen asked himself this question too (paraphrasing): Why the need to practice if we are already Buddhas?

The Buddha spent years going after different sorts of practices before he "just sat" under the Bodhi tree and "attained/recognized" awakening. Dogen travelled to China and spent years facing a wall before "dropping off body-mind". And yet, the instruction for Shikantaza is to just sit, with no goals other than just sitting.

But here is where I would like the discussion to kick in, or at least to receive some feedback. The fact that one sits down and drops every single intention, with an attitude of full trust in the practice, doesn't necessarily contradict the overall goal of "attaining something". And by attaining, I do not mean to gain or lose something that we are not already. I point towards the recognition of a freedom that is already there, but that we do not "see", Buddha-nature.

- If there is no intrinsic freedom that still needs to be "recognized", why sit?
- Why did the Buddha and Dogen sit for long periods of time for many years?
- Is it enough to sit 20-40 minutes a day in Zazen to discover who we truly are?
- Should we not spend the time that we dedicate to other "less important activities", such as binge-watching Netflix, reading hundreds of books, etc. to full-hearted zazen?

Practice-enlightenment is freedom itself, yet the major figures within this tradition seem to have realized/recognized this "in their being" after a lot of sitting.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat

[Jundo]

There are some treasures that can only be attained by radical dropping of all need and hunger to attain.

This is so in a world in which people rise in the morning, needing to go here, run there, get away from this, grab more that, with a head filled with endless plans, judgements, measures and dreams. It is our sense of self, divided from a world of objects, which we run toward to clutch, or run from in fear. Some seek to turn meditation into just another tool or technique to grab some special prize or experience, not realizing that the most special prize and experience is the total peace and completion of freedom from all need to grab.

Mountains do not do plan and measure to rest as mountains, stars do not do so to shine as stars. Buddha sat as the star shining, nothing lacking, nothing more to attain.

One need not sit to recognize so, yet sitting as a mountain and shining within like a stars is a good way to realize and attain such radical non-attaining.

Sitting for 20 or 40 minutes or hours or days is good, but one must truly sit with each moment of Zazen beyond all measure, each instant holding all time and timeless too. In sitting Zazen, there is nothing to measure, no points to gain, no before or after this moment of sitting. To realize that Zazen is never a matter of time, that there is nothing to add or take away, no measure or clock, is why we sit for some minutes each day.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

[Inshin]

How do you think Bodaishin, the essential to Zen way seeking mind differ from ordinary goal oriented mind?

Gassho
Sat

[Jundo]

How do you think Bodaishin, the essential to Zen way seeking mind differ from ordinary goal oriented mind?

Gassho
Sat

In Master Dogen's practice-enlightenment, this "Way Seeking Mind" keeps walking forward step by step, sitting Zazen minute by minute, avoiding to fall into excess desire, anger and violence, jealousy and other harmful actions choice by choice ... realizing that every moment in which we act wise like a Buddha is a Buddha's wisdom realized in this life ...

... yet also realizing that there is no place to go, nothing lacking, nothing to change, nothing to add or take away ...

... all true at once.

The goal seeking mind only knows attaining, reaching, getting, possessing, dreaming of the next place to be. The Way Seeking Mind keeps moving forward, keeps working and living peacefully, yet nothing to attain. Like that.

Sorry to run long.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tomás ESP]

There are some treasures that can only be attained by radical dropping of all need and hunger to attain.

This is so in a world in which people rise in the morning, needing to go here, run there, get away from this, grab more that, with a head filled with endless plans, judgements, measures and dreams. It is our sense of self, divided from a world of objects, which we run toward to clutch, or run from in fear. Some seek to turn meditation into just another tool or technique to grab some special prize or experience, not realizing that the most special prize and experience is the total peace and completion of freedom from all need to grab.

Mountains do not do plan and measure to rest as mountains, stars do not do so to shine as stars. Buddha sat as the star shining, nothing lacking, nothing more to attain.

One need not sit to recognize so, yet sitting as a mountain and shining within like a stars is a good way to realize and attain such radical non-attaining.

Sitting for 20 or 40 minutes or hours or days is good, but one must truly sit with each moment of Zazen beyond all measure, each instant holding all time and timeless too. In sitting Zazen, there is nothing to measure, no points to gain, no before or after this moment of sitting. To realize that Zazen is never a matter of time, that there is nothing to add or take away, no measure or clock, is why we sit for some minutes each day.

Gassho, Jundo

SatTodayLAH

That was a beautiful text Jundo, thank you for sharing. But I still can't grasp how one sits with such radical acceptance. It is in our human nature to want to run away from suffering, to find a solution, to fix this pain and misery. Mountains and stars aren't conscious nor suffer. I guess these questions can only be answered in experience and through sitting. I tend to get over intellectual, as you will have noticed. It was a way to cope in the past, and sometimes now.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Jundo]

Sit with faith that there is nothing more needed or lacking, until one feels that nothing more is needed or lacking ... then nothing more is needed or lacking.

Very easy.

[Tom A.]

That was a beautiful text Jundo, thank you for sharing. But I still can't grasp how one sits with such radical acceptance. It is in our human nature to want to run away from suffering, to find a solution, to fix this pain and misery. Mountains and stars aren't conscious nor suffer. I guess these questions can only be answered in experience and through sitting. I tend to get over intellectual, as you will have noticed. It was a way to cope in the past, and sometimes now.

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

Pain is different than suffering. I don't think Jundo is saying "don't alleviate your pain" (because we're not masochists) and at the same time I think he is saying that sometimes it is good for people to swim against the current of hedonism and the hedonic treadmill and the like and that can create a certain kind of pain that is not suffering. It is blind hedonism and consumption, and the desire for more and more and non-acceptance for things we cannot change that creates suffering

Gassho,
Tom
SatLah.

[Inshin]

Mountains and stars aren't conscious nor suffer.

I struggle at the moment with a different notion : that there are no mountains and stars, just consciousness

Found this today and it made me laugh, good old Sawaki

ZAZEN - SITTING IN MEDITATION

What’s zazen good for? Absolutely nothing! This “good for nothing” has got to sink into your flesh and bones until you’re　truly practicing what’s good for nothing. Until then, your zazen is really good for nothing.

You say you want to become a better person by doing zazen. Zazen isn’t about learning how to be a person. Zazen is to stop being a person.

Zazen is unsatisfying. Unsatisfying for whom? For the ordinary person. People are never satisfied.

Isn’t it self-evident? How could that which is eternal and infinite ever satisfy human desires?

Unsatisfying: simply practicing zazen.
Unsatisfying: realizing zazen with this body.
Unsatisfying: absorbing zazen into your flesh and blood.

Being watched by zazen, cursed by zazen, blocked by zazen, dragged around by zazen, every day crying tears of blood – isn’t that the happiest form of life you can imagine?

You say “When I do zazen, I get disturbing thoughts!” Foolish! The fact is that it’s only in zazen that you’re aware of your disturbing thoughts at all. When you dance around with your disturbing thoughts, you don’t notice them at all. When a mosquito bites you during zazen, you notice it right away. But when you’re dancing and a flea bites your balls, you don’t notice it at all.

Don’t whine. Don’t stare into space. Just sit!

- Kodo Sawaki, To You

Gassho
Sat

[Tomás ESP]

I struggle at the moment with a different notion : that there are no mountains and stars, just consciousness

I feel like one of those old zen masters would make you climb up and down the mountains for hours on end and then ask you so: If there is only consciousness, why the hell are you so tired?!

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH

[Bion]

I think people get confused about what zazen is and isn’t, but Zazen itself is the means and the goal, and it’s what the masters and Buddha discovered and taught after many trials and much searching, so that now we don’t have to blindly search for.
No particular thought, realization or understanding happening while sitting is of any use to the sitting, since they are neither good, nor bad, neither useful, nor useless.
Whatever we obtain from zazen we carry into our daily activities, so we turn every action into a form of zazen, although it ends up being no different, sitting or standing, still or in motion, when we do things with the mind of zazen.

[emoji1374] SatToday lah

[Tairin]

I struggle at the moment with a different notion : that there are no mountains and stars, just consciousness

Found this today and it made me laugh, good old Sawaki

Gassho
Sat

There is so much so much wisdom in Sawaki’s lessons. Yes they are entertaining and pithy but they are among the clearest statements and directions for this practice


Tairin
Sat today and lah

[Jundo]

I feel like one of those old zen masters would make you climb up and down the mountains for hours on end and then ask you so: If there is only consciousness, why the hell are you so tired?!

Yes, no mountains, no you, no me ... and yet, up and down we go.

Call this "emptiness" or "wholeness" or "Stanley" or "Apple Sauce" ... not so important. Maybe only "consciousness" or maybe only "apple sauce," whatever. You me and the mountain are just Apple Sauce.

Shikantaza is like walking Buddha mountain looking for Buddha mountain. Some folks only want to get to the beautiful vista at the pinnacle, where all obstacles drop away and all can be seen in all directions. Some think of that as getting to the end of the journey. It is a wonderful spot. But some of us realize that every step of the way, from the foot of the mountain to great heights, up and down, even the not so pretty parts, are ALL Buddha Mountain, and amazing vistas without obstacles are found in ALL of it. Each step is its own unique arrival and "pinnacle." Thus, we keep walking, while sitting and resting sometimes.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Kaisui]

As most of you will know, Dogen asked himself this question too (paraphrasing): Why the need to practice if we are already Buddhas?

I'm enjoying this discussion around this question. Thank you all. I imagine it is one that comes up many times, but also one that is good to keep discussing.

Sit with faith that there is nothing more needed or lacking, until one feels that nothing more is needed or lacking ... then nothing more is needed or lacking.

Very easy.

I find this idea of faith or trust to be helpful. As I've been sitting I notice my mind keeps striving to reach a point of seeing reality or to reach non-striving, and if I try to stop this I am only repeating the striving for non-striving... and then start trying to understand this as well, which is thinking...

I feel that what helps me here is to gently remind myself to trust that all I need to do now is observe this (all of it, the striving and thinking included) along with everything else with the mirror mind. What's the point of this? This is where trust comes in, that I don't know yet but I don't need to try to understand it right now. Maybe I will know it through sitting.

You say “When I do zazen, I get disturbing thoughts!” Foolish! The fact is that it’s only in zazen that you’re aware of your disturbing thoughts at all. When you dance around with your disturbing thoughts, you don’t notice them at all. When a mosquito bites you during zazen, you notice it right away. But when you’re dancing and a flea bites your balls, you don’t notice it at all.

I love this as well. Thank you. I shall make a note to look up more of Sawaki.

Gassho,
Charity
sat

[Koki]

Buddha mountain

The only enlightenment to be found on Buddha Mountain, is that which you bring there.

Koki
Satoday

Yes, no mountains, no you, no me ... and yet, up and down we go.

Call this "emptiness" or "wholeness" or "Stanley" or "Apple Sauce" ... not so important. Maybe only "consciousness" or maybe only "apple sauce," whatever. You me and the mountain are just Apple Sauce.

Shikantaza is like walking Buddha mountain looking for Buddha mountain. Some folks only want to get to the beautiful vista at the pinnacle, where all obstacles drop away and all can be seen in all directions. Some think of that as getting to the end of the journey. It is a wonderful spot. But some of us realize that every step of the way, from the foot of the mountain to great heights, up and down, even the not so pretty parts, are ALL Buddha Mountain, and amazing vistas without obstacles are found in ALL of it. Each step is its own unique arrival and "pinnacle." Thus, we keep walking, while sitting and resting sometimes.

Gassho, J

STLah

[Tomás ESP]

Sit with faith that there is nothing more needed or lacking, until one feels that nothing more is needed or lacking ... then nothing more is needed or lacking.

Very easy.

I believe you told me this a few months ago. Just sitting is trusting life completely. I feel like I do not have much trust or faith in life in this moment. Always searching for some kind of "pointing" that liberates me from suffering. A form of spiritual materialism. Yet faith is jumping into "just this", trusting the voices from the masters of old and new that tell you that "just this" is enough. Deep bowing

Gassho, Tomás
Sat&LaH